My logic as you put it is straight forward we failed to recruit at least 1on field Leader that could come from a number of positions it doesn't have to be a HB.
Look at ST's for e.g lead by Roby & Wilkin.
Re-Cas Their go to FB who plays as an extra HB has been missing as has Roberts Millington Shenton Moors Holmes plenty of their "big hitters" so a more than fair comparison.
Wakey also missing a lot of their bigger players but look organised.
You also seem happy to use Mags injury as an excuse yet dont afford Suttcliffe that same courtesy he's had a serious knee injury had no pre-season & is thrown into a pivotal role amongst an iut of form rudderless shambles.
The Coach/staff are a major part of that & as with the team have failed to come up with any sort of basic gameplan or shape.
Also GH doesn't just say we're signing A,B or C either EVERY Coach has had an input in that process.

People say fullbacks are an extra half but in reality they have much less influence in attack and dont have to be nearly as creative.
Tomkins is a prime example of a young half who had a brilliant running game and a pretty good ability to read a defence. But at the age of 21 (sutcliffe's age btw) they decided to move him to fullback where he would have more space and less thinking to do instead of developing his ability to read defences and his kicking game.

In australia they do the opposite, players who are young come in with similar attributes to tomkins who play at fullback for a few years to adapt to the NRL but are then moved to 6 to give them MORE responsibility and develop the other aspects of being a half, such as Milford and Widdop.
And we still unsuprisingly cant beat the Aussies or NZ when they have their first choice halves.
They back their talented fullbacks and give them more responsibilty and we take responsibility off our talented halves.

Your organiser type of halfback is a rare beast as it is but even rarer now because teams are making calls on players at the age of 19 so many potential players are being lost before they've had a chance to finish their development.

There's been some discussion about this on the Bulls forum. There hasn't been a single decent British organising halfback to come through at that age since Bobbie Goulding. Almost all the British organising halfbacks of the past 10-15 years didn't become regulars until their early 20s. Deacon was 23, Long was 24.

I've a theory that it could be down to size. Those smaller lads aren't ready physically at 19 so get fewer chances unless they're some kind of prodigy. Even then they get moved e.g. to fullback so they're less of a defensive liability (Tomkins) or moved to be an impact player/dummy half (Burrow).

Juan, did Hardaker diddle your wife & is BMD your favourite uncle?

The trouble with too much favouritism &/or dislike is that it clouds judgements & encourages people to disregard your opinion on the grounds that it is the same old one-sided fare.

Hardaker is an infantile playboy (he wishes) who has an excellent running game, outstanding one-on-one defense & good handling of the high ball. These were the attributes which brought him the MOS award in 2015. His linking in the offensive line & passing are his weaknesses & he will have to improve on these aspects to become a truly great FB. He, like 95% of his colleagues, are suffering from poor form at the moment.

McDermott has shown that he can take a group of proven winners & keep them motivated enough to continue their winning ways. He has also introduced a sprinkling of talent (mostly from overseas or the academy) over his tenure with great success. The problem was always going to be when the proven winners & leaders started to disappear. He HAS had terrible luck with injuries the season so far, but there is nothing in the demeanour of the players to suggest that they know what to do about their current plight. Has BMD identified the CORRECT players to take on the leadership role? Has he identified the CORRECT game plans to see us through this tough time? Has he got the necessary leadership skills himself to impart wisdom/knowledge/inspiration to his troops?
Only GH & the players would be able to answer these questions, but the longer this spell goes on the more people (myself included) come to the conclusion that the answers may be NO.

It is no good just crying about our terrible injury list, or saying "Does BMD tell his players to drop the ball/give away penalties etc?". He is a supposed to be the leader & inspiration & I don't see that inherent in our play.

Many people said that once KS & JP left, that would be the acid test for BMD (or any coach for that matter). He hasn't started very well.

Have you seen Hardaker under the high ball lately - he spends more time shouting at Handley to catch it than actually attempting to catch it himself.

He puts others in a tough position because their approach to the catch is not ideal because Hardaker is in the ideal place and should grow some and catch the thing.

This is what I believe. At 19 young halves are mainly acting instinctively, that can only take you so far. Experience takes a few years longer to develop. Bobby Goulding was Leeds best player when we handed him to Saints, he'd developed a lot from his early days at Widnes and he was just ready to really kick on.

Totally agree - how can someone who, in previous seasons, has been so consistently good under the high ball, become so poor this season?

How can someone like Garbutt go from charging it in & making good metres one season to being powder puff (except for one or two games) this season?

How can someone, who was just emerging into the team, put Saints & a couple of others to the sword & look like a genuinely good young British HB last season, then go to looking like he doesn't know what to do the next season? (Although a really bad injury has played a part)

How can Ablett be sound in defense over many seasons & then allow chasms to appear for opposition players to walk through this?

How can Watkins look like he would comfortably fit in the NRL last couple of seasons, & now look like he would struggle to get a game for Batley?

& on & on......

Why have so many good/excellent SL players all had such a downturn in form at exactly the same time?

But look how McGuire and Burrow seamlessly wove into the team at a young age and how well they performed personally...

Maybe just maybe this is a quality issue.

Happened last year with him and Handley too. His communication is fine with Briscoe and Hall but not Handley and it's not all on the youngster.

Both were introduced gradually from bench spots plus had an established Sinfield & Dunemann to guide them along with a quality 9 in Disko.

That is nothing to do with the player Sal, I pointed this out previously on here. The instruction from the coach is that all kicks are fielded where possible by the wingers, and the pass put back inside for running centrally upfield, and that where posible Hardaker is the man inside. That is why they get confused on who is taking.

Obviously if the kick is straight at Hardaker, then he takes it, but if you watch he then looks for the winger coming inside him to give the ball to. When in reality he should be running.

Exactly. Burrow isn't exactly a playmaking scrum half either and McGuire was well into his mid 20s before he became a full fledged playmaker.

We had a very rare situation in modern RL in that we had a 13 in Sinfield who could run a game, he didnt take every 5th tackle or organise every play but he knew when to inject himself and kept the team moving around.
This allowed our very young spine of Burrow Mcguire Mathers and to a lesser extent Diskin, to focus purely on creating breaks and scoring tries.

What the team needs now is for Mcguire to do a similar thing to free up Sutcliffe and Hardaker

When most of you complain that Hardaker does not link up well will you please note that Leeds do not have that style of play unlike Wigan with Tompkin . That is not Hardakers fault or decision . Why he is getting all the stick on here when others are far worse i do not understand . Falloon so far has been garbage and the coaches decision to use Burrow as playmaker at times beggars belief

Not sure you are correct regarding either of your points.

My understanding of the events of last year was that after Sinfield announced his move to Union he fell out of favour and form which gave Sutty his break at 6 with the high point his good performance in the Saints match.

However after this brief high point he failed to maintain this form when playing at 6 for the following three games in which we lost our way and were beaten by Warrington, drew with Huddersfield and lost to Widnes at which point he was dropped to the bench and Sinfield was recalled at 6 to organise a good victory over Huddersfield in the Cup and Hull KR in SL.

Sutty then played from the bench and at full back a couple of times before his final go at 6 where he was injured mid way through the first half against Hull. During this intervening period others played at halfback with Sinny either at 13 or being kept fresh on the bench.

I think you will find his period of playing at 6 comprised 4 matches on the trot with one win, 2 losses and a draw after which he was dropped to the bench with Sinfield returning successfully to steer us back on track. Hardly proof of his ability to replace Sinfield. Yet it was on these limited performances, and in previous cameos from the subs bench, that you judged Sutty "clearly worthy of his spot once in and he showed clearly he has enough to be a 6" Hmmm.

Well what was clear to me and others then and has been made crystal clear this season is that Sutty does not have what it takes as a pivotal player and game manager. It is unfortunate for him that his return coincided with the injuries and the team loss of form but never the less he has shown he is not the play-maker that Leeds need just now.

Until we find a creative decision maker to play in the halves we will continue to struggle on attack. A fit Mags can provide some of what we need but perhaps not enough and without cover it is too big a risk. At the moment I would play Lilley with Mags at 6 & 7 and if Danny is out injured yet again I would be tempted to give Lilley and Golding a run together. We need to out score the opposition.

just having a quick look at the games Sutty started at 6 last year. according to the match reports on the official website (lol accuracy), it was these ones:

Beat Wigan (h)
Beat Catalans (a)
Beat Cas (a)
Beat Wakefield (h)
Beat Saints (a) sinny on bench
Lost Warrington (a) sinny on bench
Drew Huddersfield (a)
Lost Widnes (a)

you choose to focus on the last 4 for some reason, ignoring the fact that with him starting at 6 we beat grand finalists Wigan, Catalans in France, Cas at their place, and play-off semi-finalists Saints at Langtree

Fair enough - but I think he takes this too literally and balls he should be taking he is expecting the wingers to take which often seems the wrong option. It seems strange that you would want to pass towards your posts so near you own line.

The focus was on the period when Sinfield was dropped and supposedly kept his place on form until he was injured. From time to time previously he had experienced game time at 6 when Sinfield was not available without ever looking like making the position his own.

So you saying because we lost it proves Sutty didn't play well?
He played well in more than 1 game at 6 & you'll also find thst when Sinfield was reintroduced to the team he even played spells at 9 so not as clear cut as you make out either.
Also just because you & "others" say as such it doesnt make it right that he wont be a 6 just like Burrow never been big enough Hall being clueless & Jjb too injury prone all of which were said early in their careers.
If i got it wrong that he played exclusively at 6 till injured fair doos he was still in the 17 week in week out on merit.

I remember Paul McShane having six better games than I have seen Sutcliffe have. Nick Scruton certainly had many better games than six. Ben Jones Bishop again better games in more than six. I mean the list could go on, Simon Worrall had six games where he looked very good, where is he now?

What those six games showed with Sutcliffe, and it was mentioned at the time, is that whilst the going was good and everyone around him playing well he could stand out. When the going got tougher and some of his team mates faltered he was brought down to a level. Something that top players don't allow to happen.

Nice use of language, not showing any bias at all

Sutcliffe:


Sinfield:

My God you talk some guff. The obvious response to your ridiculous statement being, none of those players were positioned at half back.

It takes years to become a proficient creative half back, if it didn't Thurston would never have left the Bulldogs, Schofield would never have played centre (same for Laurie Daley) and Lockyer wouldn't have been a full back. Even recently in the SL, Brough bumped along through the bottom feeders for a number of years before finding his feet.

I'm not sure if Sutcliffe has what it takes right now but, I am certain that he is not the reason we are struggling so badly and we will not find out how far he can go by chucking him to the wolves now.

In the Saints game alone last season, he showed plenty of what he CAN do. He read the game well, ran well at second receiver, put in some good kicks and moved the ball around with some skill. With the exception of BJB, I never saw any of the players you are talking about, take the game by the scruff of the neck and win it (even for 40 minutes). Get off his back and give the guy a chance.

Stand back and wait for the London telephone directory to be issued in response.

I could quite easily label the same statement at you. I am well aware half backs take time to settle, however they also show they have the ability in the first place to warrant that settling period, and that they could do it in future. I have said this many times, and still never seen a post to refute it, there is no difference between Sutcliffe and Lee Gaskell at the same ages, they are like for like players completely. Gaskell however, had many better games in the halfs, and was the choice of porn for certain sky commentators. Howver, what is his level now? what position is he? Saints knew what they were doing, and for the right reason. Are you suggesting Saints would regret their decision?

We have had two or three half backs over the last decade who looked miles better than Sutcliffe, they were sent packing. Do the club regret it? I can't recall seeing your posts of not to write them off.

Have Mcguire Sinfield Burrow etc never looked "lost" when the whole team has struggled for form in the past?
Indeed it took Sinfield plenty of time to settle in at 6 in fact he spent plenty of time just where Stevie Ward is now in the SR.
The fact yer writing the kid off after 7mths out after major surgery no pre-season & thrown into a rudderless team with 2 wins in 10 games really ?'s how you judge a player imo.