But, you say that from a position of privilege. As someone not a victim subjected to that form of discrimination and abuse.

You arent discriminated against for having an ugly child, people dont get beaten up or murdered for having ugly children. Ugly children's parents can get married, they can adopt, they can foster without discrimination. You dont have religious types telling you your ugly child is an affront to God and you will rot in hell because of it. You dont suffer the same injustices for having that ugly child.

They can say anything to each other other than to discriminate and abuse on the basis of race, ethnic or national origin, colour, gender or sexual preference. Its hardly a really long list and its not really a burden is it.

Those analogies are extreme are no-one would argue with them. As that is abuse in its purest form.

But back on topic in rugby terms, i dont see that occurring.

You missed my point. Worlds Apart was talking about outlawing slurs in general, on any topic. good luck policing that.

And yet we dont have any openly gay players. None at all. Or coaches.

The last time we did, he was abused by fans.

Maybe there are people who would like to be involved or more involved in our game but are put off because of the casual attitude to things like this.

Maybe the abuse and discrimination we see is a little more insidious, doesnt mean its not there.

id agree, you can't police that. Im not really sure its necessary. A personal insult is different.

Maybe you would be offended if someone insulted your wife or kids or something like that. But no rules or laws will stop some people being not very nice

Well i always thought 1/10 sounded a bit high

The underlying assumptions on here are also worryingly homophobic.

'It's a rough and tough game, so you can't be so sensitive as to worry about homophobia'

Seems to indicate an assumption that non-straight people (men especially) are (for some reason) particularly sensitive.

I'll say it again, if anyone came on here and said 'it's a rough and tough game so obviously it's ok for players to scream racist terms at each other' they'd get banned.

Just to be clear on this, and I say this only to test for consistency using similar situations, if cameras had picked up a player shouting "F**king n****r" at Monaghan, it would be fine because Monaghan isn't black and wouldn't be offended?

Who used "hate speech"? I wouldn't classify one blurted out offensive word as speech.

Does sitting on one side of the fence (the one were you're the victim of homophobia) mean you fully understand homophobia? Just like a straight man can't understand what it's like to be a victim of it, a gay man can't therefore truly always understand the actions/thinking of the accused surely?

McDermott made some pretty good comments on it IMO.
Whilst he did say Hardaker was wrong and a ban is fair he also pointed out that this wasn't a sustained attack or continued series of actions or views. It was a couple of words, one of them being a normal swear word.

Had Hardaker been guilty of a sustained or targeted attack, action or view, done with clear thinking then I'd be as appalled as anyone on here, but he isn't guilty of that.

Its a pretty poor example though isn't it, because it would never happen. Let's be honest. So not something that can be regarded.

A nearer example is calling someone a big girl, when they are male. Would you find offence to that?

You wouldnt class someone talking as speech?

No, i havent said i do. But there is a difference between something being offensive and me personally being offended. Only in the same way that a rapist can't understand what it's like to be a victim of it, therefore a woman (largely) can't understand the actions/thinking of a rapist.

and nobody has accused him of that, so im not sure its relevance.

Quote ="Gotcha"Its a pretty poor example though isn't it, because it would never happen. Let's be honest. So not something that can be regarded. A nearer example is calling someone a big girl, when they are male. Would you find offence to that?'" And yet it has happened. Your streak of wrongness continues. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 934543.stm the fact you can't tell the difference between 'big girl' and 'f'cking faggot' is ridiculous.

Quote ="Gotcha"Its a pretty poor example though isn't it, because it would never happen. Let's be honest. So not something that can be regarded. A nearer example is calling someone a big girl, when they are male. Would you find offence to that?'" And yet it has happened. Your streak of wrongness continues. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 934543.stm the fact you can't tell the difference between 'big girl' and 'f'cking faggot' is ridiculous.

I think this is largely true. If he had done that, then clearly 5 matches would be woefully inadequate.

Personally, I understand the ban for Hardaker, I see what they're trying to do in terms of sending out a strong message, but I think it's trying to sweep a bigger problem under the carpet. Hardaker has unwittingly become an emblem of a pretty pervasive, and largely unconscious homophobia. So in that regard, I don't personally believe that throwing the book at him was the answer.

In short, I don't believe his crime was so very great. It was a symptom of a wider issue, which is (and I'm honestly not trying to get into the finger pointing here) also revealed in the number of people who think this is not an issue because everyone does it and they don't really mean anything by it. Rather than criticize people who hold those views, I think there needs to be a lot of collective thinking done about the more subtle connotations of that and whether it leaves us in a position that we're really happy with.

Quote ="SmokeyTA"And yet it has happened. Your streak of wrongness continues. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 934543.stm the fact you can't tell the difference between 'big girl' and 'f'cking faggot' is ridiculous.'" I was communicating with El Diablo, not you. There is no "wrongness", regardless of your barrel scraping attempts to push your agenda. My comment to El Diablo stands. Your is one of clear racism, not a white man to a white man. Thanks for the link though, as it highlights how far out of proportion this Hardaker thing has being blown. When clear racist abuse is dealt with, with just one more game ban.

Quote ="SmokeyTA"And yet it has happened. Your streak of wrongness continues. news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_l ... 934543.stm the fact you can't tell the difference between 'big girl' and 'f'cking faggot' is ridiculous.'" I was communicating with El Diablo, not you. There is no "wrongness", regardless of your barrel scraping attempts to push your agenda. My comment to El Diablo stands. Your is one of clear racism, not a white man to a white man. Thanks for the link though, as it highlights how far out of proportion this Hardaker thing has being blown. When clear racist abuse is dealt with, with just one more game ban.

I'd say classifying one single offensive word as "speech" is pushing it in the extremes



Not really a crime committed by a hatred/dislike/aversion towards the victim like homophobia is so that's a pretty poor comparison.



I know they haven't, I didn't say anybody has. Pointing out the contexts of things, but it either it went over your head or you just can't think of a response.

Why is it not realistic? People used to use inaccurate ethnic slurs all the time when I was a kid. The use of the term "paki" as an insult was pretty commonplace. I would argue that it's unlikely to happen now because people are more firmly programmed to think its unacceptable.

Would I find offence to it? No. I wasn't, to be clear, personally offended by the use of the word "faggot" either. I don't think I have to be to accept that other people could be.

Your example does probably wander into some of the "shades of grey" that (I think) ThePrinter alluded to earlier. There is a subtle difference, for instance, in the fact that calling him a girl is transparently enough not plausible that there is an element of farce. Michael Monaghan clearly could feasibly be gay. It is vanishingly unlikely that he is a girl. The main impact of this being in the likelihood that it would be used in quite the pejorative way that the word "faggot" was used in this case. There was nothing particularly jovial and banter-ish about this incident, if we're being honest. But personally I wouldn't use it in a very public sphere, and I wouldn't use it at work. "Girl" is also not actually a pejorative term, whereas "faggot" clearly is. Surely you would agree that there is an important difference in that? I'm not even sure I know a pejorative term for girl.

In light of that, perhaps "jew" or, more accurately, one of its less pleasant colloquial synonyms might be a better example. if Hardaker had abused Monaghan by calling him a "f**king yid" would that be OK because Monaghan isn't Jewish?

No, it was a black man to a black man. You know, like earlier on when we heard it was ok because sometimes gay people use it.

"The words were just in the back of my head and they were just words I automatically use with people I hang out with, but not in a racist way," Swap the word 'racist' for 'homophobic' and that is your fanboy defence of Hardaker.

You do realise that speech means the vocalized form of human language yes? Using one word is 'speech'.

This is different from A Speech. Nobody is pretending that Hardaker is out there giving Homophobic speeches at rallys or anything.

Erm.......I'll leave the specific list of wrongs in that sentence well alone.

Well it was a rubbish straw man. It didnt even have a hat.

This is perhaps easily said as I don't have any strong personal interest in this - I have gay friends but none of them would be offended by this incident, but I think we have to be able to have this debate without name calling and finger pointing.

As with racism, I think the competing views need to be aired, discussed and debated. As soon as people can't raise points like those being raised by ThePrinter and Gotcha (among others) on here (and they are views that have similarly lucid counterparts in racist/anti-racist discourse) without being branded ignorant or as supporting or being part of the prejudice we're talking about, we start creating more problems.

It's important that people can talk about these things. That has to be within reasonable boundaries, but I don't think anything on this thread has stepped outside those boundaries.

Yes fully aware of what you could come up with if you searched the different meanings of speech.

You labelling what happened as hate speech though, well......what was that about clutching straws again?

I would find offence, yes. Not as a man per se, but on behalf of women. In this context the implication is that it is somehow 'inferior' to 'be a woman' and that it isn't the right way to be.

A man can get angry, get upset, cry and sulk like anyone can. It's just that a lot of men perceive crying (for instance) as being 'unmanly' so therefore use condescending terms like 'stop being a woman'.

What they actually mean is 'stop reacting in such a way that I feel uncomfortable with as it confounds my notions of "masculinity".'

But instead the aggressor will tend to say things in such a way that it persecutes another and stops them acknowledging their own vulnerability and sense of insecurity.

In a rugby context, for instance (seeing as this is a rugby board) say if one of the players gets walloped tonight and rather than lamping the aggressor several times, the cry on they well up and show some pain. So what? They are not 'being a big girl' they are merely being themself - a man. A different man with different outlooks and reactions to another in that situation, but no less of one (nor 'no more' of one either).

I do a lot of work in my job working with notions of identity and of 'isms' that people experience and how it affects them. This one of 'being a girl' comes up a lot with young men / boys and adult men that i work with.

Conversely, some young women / girls and adult women i work with have started saying how they feel they are criticised or looked down upon by showing emotional vulnerability and sensitivity.

Look at the Snickers advert - they have been sly in saying 'have a snickers, you turn into a right diva otherwise' (rather than saying 'a right woman' but i think this was a clever side-step to avoid more offense). Then 'get some nuts'.

Due to the double intonation of 'get some nuts' - here 'get a snickers'; generally meaning 'be a man / get some balls' they are suggesting that being a 'diva' is 'not ok' and that 'having nuts' is what is needed.

Why is it?

I suspect Gotcha may be the type of person that would buy in to such messages acceptingly; i am not. Yet we are both men. Gotcha is no more manly than I. I am no more than him. He may be stronger than me and could beat me up if he wanted - I might be more emotionally resilient than him and could support him with problems, relationships and emotions better than he could himself.

Swings and roundabouts really.

Hate speech is speech that attacks a person or group on the basis of e.g. race, religion, gender, disability, or sexual orientation

Thats the definition from dictionary.com

I have yet to see any definition which refers to the length of what the person said.

I'd be wary of being a slave to a dictionary definition here. "Hate speech" does seem a rather strong description for this incident (there's a lack of hatred in it, for a start). I'm not sure it's that helpful to use that sort of language in this case.

I always thought a "fag" was something you smoked when you needed nicotine and that a "faggot" was something you ate with mash and onion gravy!

Where have I been all this time that these simple words have been turned into homophobic slurs?



In Seriousness though, he has been caught using a homophobic slur and found not be a homophobe. He has been dealt with by the RFL who think that a 5 game ban and £300 fine is sufficient punishment for his heat of the moment mistake.

If I've read it correctly is he also spending some time with the pink rhinos and LGBT Community as an educational process? Will this make him think twice before slurring again?

In the heat of a RL game, things will always be spoken in the heat of the moment, some will get picked up and be publicised in the way that this case has and others will just fall by the wayside.

The RFL have set out their stall now and anyone found guilty of using homophobic, racist, other discriminatory language should incur the same length ban as Zak as an absolute minimum.