Actually, you didn't. I come back to the interesting topic of language.

You said

You said "if people" then in a new sentence said Zak, specifically should know better and was either a nasty homphobe or ignorant. You didn't qualify by saying those were the two options IF Zak has used the terms alleged. I'll accept that is what you meant but just shows how we shouldn't necessarily assume we understand the meaning intended by people's words, written or screamed on a rugbv pitch.

Probably the most ignorance going on is by fans who don't think that sort of language isn't used all the time. I'd hazard a guess that every single club had at least one player who used a homophobic term.....but as you didn't see it then ignorance is bliss.

What if Hardaker when questioned admits to saying but it was a response to a Wire player who had just called him a "fu**ing puff/bender/queer." As we didn't see it would opposition fans say this is also unacceptable or would they say it's Hardaker trying to squirm his way out?

How many of these disgruntled fans, who use the phrase "but I'm offended because I know people who are gay" ( which to be honest is a little patronising that you're offended on their behalf), use colourful language in stands every week with no thought about how others might not like it and find crude and inappropriate in front of kids?

Great post!

If you're referring to my post, then you've misinterpreted. I merely asked if your reaction would be the same if it was a player from another team.

Hardaker could be the next Julian Clary. He isnt allowed to use that word on an RL field, it is a homophobic slur. That it is a homophobic slur is not really a debate, it is accepted by pretty much all to be so.

Im not even saying Hardaker is homophobic (again if true) simply that a word he used was a homophobic slur. The same as if you sing along to Dr Dre and say the word n.igger it doesnt make you racist. It does mean you used a racist word and nobody would argue there is a place for that word, to be said in anger, on an RL field

We are Leeds Rhino's, we are a modern progressive club, we are better than defending this.

Well it is obvious to everyone what Zak shouted it was F'ing Faggot.

Ask him maybe ?

I don't give a monkeys personally but everyone knows what he shouted if they watched that clip.

Because 'fag' is a pejorative for gay men. That's how you use 'fag' in a homophobic way.


That doesn't negate the fact that using pejoratives against certain groups of people is in direct opposition to the Respect policy of the RFL and therefore leaving the player open to sanction should guilt be established.

Thanks for being the only smart person in the room. 'fag' is used in a derogatory, homophobic way & when someone uses it they are acutely aware of what the connotations are and therefore they deserve anything handed to them.

Sick of people saying Zak should be fired cos " If Iwent to work and allegedly called someone a faggot id be sacked".. This is sport, certain rules do not apply. I do not remember anyone calling for Briers to be sacked when he ran up behind Ablett and punched him, pretty certain that would get us normal folk sacked too, or sticking two fingers up at a group of people like Sam did..

Neither of them got into any trouble with the authorities did they...

I have just watched Hollyoaks (I do this so I can watch the sport after 7!) and at about 1850 a scouse lad called a transgender person a faggot. Now if channel 4 believed this was a 'naughty' word surely there would have been warnings, waited till 2100 etc to air the show.

Whilst if he has said that then he needs dealing with, players do have responsibilities but it is not as bad as people are saying.

As a side, I have an Asian friend, he calls me a white honky b*****d and I cal him a p**i. No offense is intended and its a joke between us. If people are offended then they shouldn't be overhearing our conversations. If you are easily offended by swearing then you shouldn't be watching sport..

quite possibly the point is that it shouldn't be used all the time which is exactly why it shouldn't be ignored. If someone made a nasty comment about my mixed heritage you can be sure id feel the same. Fortunately those sorts of comments are becoming less frequent - BECAUSE we are trying to eradicate them not accept them as "everybody uses them"

Exactly. Ignorance is no excuse. Especially in such a public arena. If in doubt (due to ignorance) best playing it cautiously. Ban should then make him think again the next time if it happens again. Though ideally it shouldn't.

Also I don't think there is a witch hunt going on by fans of other teams, a lot of what is being said is just, it is just being said by some non-rhinos.

I'd just pick you up on two points here:

One, two wrongs don't make a right. Your use of rape as a means of trying to make a point was pretty poor on a lot of levels. I don't think you need to wait for other people to do anything.

But, by the by, I am also curious, given that you are obviously personally attached to this issue in some way: do you think making an example of people (assuming a case where we're dealing with casual homophobias, where offence is caused without that intent) really addresses the problem? I ask mainly as I've been doing some work lately with Show Racism the Red Card, which I always enjoy, and their philosophy is very much based on getting things out in the open and making people think about their attitudes and perceptions, rather than the prevalent "ooh, you can't say that, you must shut up immediately" approach, which just buries the problem without fixing it.

If the disciplinary concludes that a homophobic slur was made, I'm not suggesting they would turn a blind eye and not hand out a punishment. But that on its own isn't going to, in my opinion, do anything more than persuade people you can't say it, eve if you think it, or, more likely, you mustn't get caught saying it.

Jeez. Who cares. Watch the news there's bigger problems out there. Things are said in the heat of the moment. Clearly Zak isn't a homophobe, he has 2 earrings FFS!

I agree with this person.

But I don't think a load of punitive measures are the best way to fix it. They're part of the answer, but IMO a small part.

IMO, one of the main reasons the last legs of the fight against racism are so difficult is that we have spent too long preventing people from talking about their differences and focusing too hard on what they say rather than what they think.

I don't want to see a situation where you just have people thinking "it's naughty to say that, so I'll keep it to myself." Not enough.

very true.
A ban is not necessarily the way forward. Education is. If a comment made without thought is the way to get this discussed then let it happen. An apology and greater understanding within the RL community will do more good.

Give him an 8 match ban and in those 8 weeks he can work at Stonewall.

Win win

You even get him fit for the playoffs

win win win

Well it's not such a big secret that I'm bisexual and spend a lot of time with transpeople, so although I personally wouldn't be bothered if anyone called me a faggot, I do know a lot of people who would be upset. If such insults were thrown in my direction (as has happened on occasion in the past), I have a couple of options open to me: I can ignore the commenter, I can get upset and complain or I can lamp him/her. In the past, options one and three have usually been favoured.

Spending the amount of time that I do in the company of and in contact with transpeople, I'd suggest that the figure of 1.5% non-heterosexual is a vast understatement. I never cease to be amazed at the number of guys who engage in sexual activity with transpeople and yet insist that they are "straight". I think getting an accurate fix on the number of non-heterosexual people is fraught with difficulty, simply because of the reluctance of many people to be honest in their answers for fear of peer pressure or that their partner or spouse may find out.

As to Hardaker: Did his alleged comments upset me? - no, why should they?
Is he a daft lad? - Undoubtedly yes
Should he face suspension? - Couldn't give a toss, it just may send a message but wouldn't make a ha'porth of difference in the great scheme of things.

But the thing with that whole "it'll make him think again next time", it's not like he stood there for several seconds thinking of a slur and ending up deciding on that one. In the heat of the moment and the unique setting of a sporting field then his mouth will have blurted out anything.

If people have an accident at home where they hurt themselves do they turn around to check if children are around or do they just on instinct turn the air blue. Some seem to think Hardaker knew exactly what he was saying and thought (and ignored) the implications of the word, personally I'd be surprised if he even remembered saying it after the match until it was brought up.

Do people think Hardaker doing Stonewall will stop another player possibly using such language? In the heat of the moment when it's kicking off do you think they'll go "oh wait, remember the Hardaker incident, I'll call my opponent a fu**ing wa**er instead just in case the Sky cameras are on me."

This heat of the moment excuse makes me want to bang my head against a brick wall! It's Pathetic!
In the heat of the moment you don't just choose a random word you have never used before do you? You choose a word that's part of your vocabulary- the point is getting people to remove words such as this out of their vocabulary so they don't use it in the heat of the moment.

Who says he said it to anybody? When I play and stop the ball I often shout at myself.

The key to the argument is the use of the term faggot as an insult. Gay abuse is unique in that you could use it in a derogatory way to either a straight person or a gay person. calling someone gay as an insult implies that makes them inferior, which is not the case.

Ok go voice your disgust at the film/tv/music industries who use terms like that as well as the N word for black people. Like someone mentioned earlier, gays use the term 'fag hag', go have a go at them.

Oh the old everyone is doing it excuse.....

The "N word" was once pretty common here and in the States. Less so now.

Dismissing it as being "just something everyone says" is a massive cop out.

Did I say anywhere "that everybody uses it", or that it's ok? No not at all, I just don't live in this fantasy world where people will stop using the word fag just because a RL player might get banned for a few games.

If you're watching a movie and the word fag was used do you stop watching the film? It's promoting and putting that word out there in the public domain. I bet you don't.

we also used to see signs outside B&Bs saying "no dogs, no blacks no irish", we saw political campaigns saying "if you want a for a neighbour, vote Labor" because those words and views were commonplace, it took people to stand up and say "no, this is wrong" to change that.

There is no need for a homophobic slur to be part of the common vernacular, no need of benefit for it being such a part of Hardakers vocabulary. It makes no sense to argue that Hardaker should be using this word to express frustration.