You might be right on Amor, hopefully.

You need to lengthen your thoughts about Coady though. He is going to take longer to be ready. People forget how few games Coady has actually played, at any level. Can't seem him been anything close to a regular for at least another 18 months.

Fair point you are right i'd forgotten his back-ground but hopefully he'll show his potential and go on to be the player the club hope he will.

Most young players getting their first opportunity in the 1st grade spend time in and out of the regular 17. I don't think anyone should be surprised at that.

If Burgess had a problem with a Leeds coach I'd have imagined it was more likely to be with Smith who never selected him for 1st grade despite him knocking on the door when Leeds were going with Kirke and Lauitiiti as interchange props late in 2007.

It was McClennan that gave Burgess his debut (7th March 2008 - six games into the new coach's time in charge) arguably at the first opportunity he got in the season with the openinmg four games being preparation and the fifth game being the WCC.

Since his debut Burgess has played in 58 of the 73 games Leeds have had. Leuluai 68 of 73, Peacock 66 of 73, Bailey 48 of 73.

That has never been expressed to me, though I am not saying it isn't the case. What has been expressed to me were his issues with Mclennan at the early stage of his career.

Of course, I am passing on information from an un-named source so you will have to take it at face value, or not but those [iwere[/i his views. There was a period, after his debut, when he was unhappy and didn't thin kthe coach rated him.

His selection sequence under coach McClennan in 2008 was:

In - 10
=#FF0000Out - 2 Groin strain picked up in training. See article attached below.
In - 3
=#FF0000Out - 1 Shoulder injury. Second and third articles below
In - 4
=#FF0000Out - 3 Burgess 18th man after Scruton returned from his 3 match suspension.
In - 4
=#FF0000Out - 3 (Play-Offs)

In 2009 Burgess played in 30 of 32 Leeds games.

Wembley final would be a dream for Luke
9th May 2008

[iRookie Leeds Rhinos prop Luke Burgess admits a Wembley appearance would fulfil a childhood dream. And the unfortunate Burgess is hoping his team-mates can keep the dream alive for him after he strained his groin in training. Burgess’ name was missing when Brian McClennan named his 19-man squad this morning and the coach confirmed the Rhinos’ injury curse had struck again. McClennan said: “It is a bit of a blow, but we are confident we can carry on. He looks doubtful for the Wakefield game too, but it is a squad game and the 17 on duty will do their best for Leeds I am sure.” With the engage Super League and Carnegie World Club Challenge trophies already in the cabinet, the Rhinos have made no secret of the fact they are targeting the Challenge Cup this year. But Burgess feels there is plenty of hard work to be done before Leeds can even contemplate the final stages of their march to the arch. “We’ll be looking to get a win on Sunday and progress in the competition,” said Burgess. “It would be massive to go all the way. It is a childhood dream to play at Wembley and win the Challenge Cup, so obviously it’s something that’s driving us all. We just want to keep knocking these games off, taking each game as it comes and hopefully slowly work our way to Wembley.” [/i

Rhinos aces sign 5 year deals
19th June 2008

[iMeanwhile, McClennan will select from the 16 who played against Harlequins on Saturday plus unused sub Simon Worrall and Luke Burgess – back from a shoulder injury – for Friday’s mouth-watering home clash against St Helens in a battle of the top two in Super League.[/i


McClennan: Saints will test our mettle
20th June 2008

[iMcClennan has no worries over the RFL’s decision to appoint Steve Ganson – who is from St Helens – as referee for tonight’s showdown. “Not at all,” said McClennan. “He is a referee who has done Grand Finals and Test matches. If Stuart Cummings and the RFL think he’s the best man for the job, I think he’s okay for us.” Prop Luke Burgess is back in contention for the Rhinos after recovering from a shoulder injury which kept him out of last weekend’s defeat. McClennan said: “He’s okay. He only just missed last week, it was a last- minute decision, but he is 100 per cent okay now.” [/i

Interesting. Meanwhile, as I said, there was a period, after he made his debut, when he was unhappy and didn;t think the coach rated him.

Perhaps Burgess was mistaken? Perhaps coach McClennan's actions spoke louder than words on this occassion.

Just as your 'source' (same one or a different one?) claimed there was little chance of Lee Smith signing then a couple of days later.... he signed.

Mistaken about what he felt? He felt what he felt. His feelings may well have been wrong. They may well have been right. When all were available for selection in the first game of the season was Burgess in the 17?

It was a different source to the Lee Smith source. The source couldn't be any closer to Luke. Take it or leave it, it's not something I often indulge in but those who know me on here know my connection.

Different one. What the source told me about that was that he had spoken to Lee the week before and Wasps were not interested in any way in letting Lee back on loan. They were coaching his "RL Habits" out of him. I spoke to my source Monday evening and he told me of his discussions with Lee the week before. Ultimatley that week Wasps released him making it an all new ball game.

No he had to wait until the 6th game of the season (the first one after the WCC) to make his debut.





We're, as in Leeds? I suspect you were wide of the mark.

So maybe Burgess' fears were well founded?

I suspect I was. Thanks for finding my quote btw. It shows that I never said my source said "there was little chance of Lee Smith signing" as you claim. My suspicions at the end of my post do not alter how perfectly accurate my source was on the Lee Smith situation. Did anyone else at the time break that if he came back it would be full time and not on the loan deal Leeds had approached Wasps about?

Luke Burgess is one of the average squad players that comes along because of the salery cap, end of. Not worth 8 pages?

On the basis that coach McClennan excluded him from the 17's that preceded the WCC and the WCC itself?

Burgess at that point was yet to make his 1st Grade debut for Leeds and I'd suggest it wasn't unreasonable for coach McClennan to stick with the players that had taken out the previous season's Grand Final who were all still available for selection + Nick Scruton who was higher up the pecking order.

Coach McClennan giving Burgess his Leeds debut and selecting him in 58 games of the 73 since (and some of the ones he missed were injury related) is hardly a convincing sign that he doesn't rate him.



I was unsure of the exact wording which is why I didn't "quote" and only paraphrased from memory. 'there was little chance of Lee Smith signing' and 'I suspect if he does come back we're out of the running' amount to much the same sentiment.

Which bit was your source perfectly accurate on? Is it the 'he's in no rush to come back' or was that you again at that point?



I think Frosties may have done?

with regards to the lee smith deal a poster on here, not gareth, text me with updates and they concur with what gareth said in all aspects so he is right on that matter.

god that hurt defending him

So basically are we saying that Burgess felt McLennan did not rate him back in 2008?
But now we are in 2010 and he has played a high percentage of games.
Does he still feel the same?

Actually, and I accept I didn't make my question clear, I meant at the start of THIS season, when everyone was available, did Burgess make the 17?

Again, to reiterate, Burgess' [ithought[/i that the coach didn't rate him during 2008. Whether Burgess was right or not is another matter. It's hard to debate some one's thoughts unless they've been articulated to you. I claim they have been articulated to me (take it or leave it). I assume you do not claim that those thoughts have been articulated to you?

So, I am not entirely sure what we're discussing here. The only discussion is whether my claims that Luke's thoughts were articulated to me is fantasy or truth. I assume you have some doubts which is why you brought the Lee Smith post into the equation.

regardless, it's clear to those who can read that those sentiments are expressed as my opinion. The part where I quote my source was shown to be 100% accurate.

Well, it's not particularly difficult, unless you're being obtuse but "Wasps are trying to "iron out his RL habits" and if he comes back to RL it will be full time" At the time I posted virtually all the discussion (and the publicity) had been about a loan deal. What I was told turned out to be spot on.

No, that is what I was told. At the time the reference was in relation to a loan deal. I guess things changed quickly when Leeds were able to offer a permanent contract. That previous sentence is my supposition in case you're not following.

You should take a shower.

No idea.

If everyone was available at the start of the season did Webb and Peacock also have doubts whether coach McClennan rated them or was that only in relation to Burgess in 2008, in which case is the start of 2010 relevant? All three played in the following game as coach McClennan gave all of his top twenty a run in the opening two fixtures. With regards to Peacock/Leuluai, Burgess/Kirke perhaps that was what he planned to do before a ball was kicked but unfortunately I don't know what he was thinking and can only comment on what he did.



I can 'take it' that it was articulated to you in person and I'm grateful you have now clarified your source on this matter.

Previously you stated [i'Luke's own view in 2008 was that Mclennan didn't rate him'[/i but followed that up later with [i'Of course, I am passing on information from an =#FF0000un-named source so you will have to take it at face value, or not but those were his views.'[/i



Coach McClennan's selections and words suggest that he rated Burgess and let's not forget Burgess was given a two year extension to his existing contract in August 2008 (article posted below) taking him through to the end of 2011. I presume coach McClennan had a large input in that decision also.

Perhaps Burgess shares our inability to interpret correctly at times.



Yes, virtually being the key word. It was something I think I recall Frosties claiming in his earlier postings regarding a possible Lee Smith return.

Double boost for the Rhinos
22nd August 2008

[iYoung guns Luke Burgess and Carl Ablett have given Leeds Rhinos a massive fillip ahead of tonight’s trip to Wigan Warriors – by agreeing new contracts. Prop Burgess – who had a year remaining on his existing deal – has signed a two-year extension which will keep him at Rhinos until the end of 2011. Second-row/centre Ablett, 22, would have been out of contract this year, but has put pen to paper on a new one-year deal. Burgess, 21, has made a big impression for the Rhinos since breaking into the senior side five months ago, while Ablett is in his fifth season as a first team player and was a member of last year’s Grand Final-winning 17. Burgess’ new deal is a setback for Bradford Bulls, who had been planning a move for the player at the end of next season.
”I had another year left on my contract, but it’s nice to get things done early,” said Burgess. “Now I can just get on with the rest of this year and the next three years. It has been a good year and it’s the icing on the cake to sign a new contract.” Burgess said he was “encouraged” the club were so keen to keep him on board. He added: “It gives me confidence that the club and coaches are pleased with my progress and I am looking forward to concentrating on my rugby and helping the team to win some silverware. The coaching staff have been brilliant with me. Brian McClennan, Francis Cummins and Willie Poching have helped me to develop my game and our conditioner, Jason Davidson, has got me in great shape and kept on at me all year to improve my fitness. I have done a lot of one-on-one work with Francis Cummins after training and he and Willie work with me on the weak areas of my game. Brian has been a massive influence on me, given me a lot of confidence and taught me great things.” Ablett declared himself “really pleased” to be staying at Leeds for another year. ”Hopefully I can build on this season in 2009,” he said. ”I have been playing a lot at centre this year, which has helped to develop different aspects of my game and I am happy to play wherever the coaching staff feel I can best help the team. I am still only 22 and I am hoping to continue to learn and develop at the Rhinos.” Head coach Brian McClennan said: “This is terrific news for the club. To secure two of our top young rising stars is great news. Luke has had a great year to date in his first season in the top grade and his potential is enormous. The club’s policy is to keep people like him on board and to progress talented young players through the ranks. Those who work hard and achieve are rewarded with upgraded and extended contracts and I think that is the right way to do things. Luke has been through our academy system and that has come to fruition in the first team this season. Hopefully he will keep improving and turn into a top Super League player. Carl has shown terrific versatility this year because of injuries. He has shown that in the centres but is still only young.
We know he will keep on improving and it is good to have him on board for next season.”[/i

I repeat, those were Luke's feelings. Whether Luke was correct and what Mclennan actually thought I have no knowledge of and have never claimed to have. As the thread is discussing a possible Burgess departure I thought it might interest some posters that Luke went through a period of feeling "un-valued" at Leeds. I make no comment on whether he was right to feel that way, but that way he felt.

I've clarified nothing and you can take nothing. You can either take what I've said at face value or dismiss it (or debate the minutiae out of it). I've not and will not be naming my source.

Thank you for repeating that. That was Luke's view and my source remains un-named.

Absolutely. Perhaps Burgess was wrong to feel the way he did. You should be having this discussion with Burgess you know.

Speak for yourself.

Well, perhaps his source was as accurate as mine though I am surprised you're going on recollection and haven't provided a link, given your penchant for so doing. Or is it just my posts that you book mark?

At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. Quote ="G1"Speak for yourself.'" Broughton playing at a higher level when he moved from the Leeds Reserves to play in Hull's 1st grade SL side being a recent example. Quote ="G1"I am surprised you're going on recollection and haven't provided a link, given your penchant for so doing. Or is it just my posts that you book mark?'" I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included, I thought that much would be obvious from your earlier observation. There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid

At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. Quote ="G1"Speak for yourself.'" Broughton playing at a higher level when he moved from the Leeds Reserves to play in Hull's 1st grade SL side being a recent example. Quote ="G1"I am surprised you're going on recollection and haven't provided a link, given your penchant for so doing. Or is it just my posts that you book mark?'" I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included, I thought that much would be obvious from your earlier observation. There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid

Quote ="tvoc"At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. '" Then I wonder why the discussion has gone so far given that I never expressed a view on whether or not the coaches actions were consistent with the player's beliefs. Quote I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included'" , You hurt my feelings. Quote There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid'" As you've asserted that Frosties mentioned Smith returning permenantly before I quoted my "source" on that I would usually expect you to have used that function.

Quote ="tvoc"At no point have I been particulary interested in who said what to you or whether it was first or second hand information, only whether the actions of coach McClennan backed up the sentiment expressed or not. '" Then I wonder why the discussion has gone so far given that I never expressed a view on whether or not the coaches actions were consistent with the player's beliefs. Quote I bookmark no-one's posts, yours included'" , You hurt my feelings. Quote There is a search button that assists in finding posts though if you can at least recollect the gist of what was said, on which forum and by whom. I've just searched for 'gist' and 'tvoc' on 'Southstander' and here's the result: search.php?keywords=gist&terms=all&author=tvoc&fid'" As you've asserted that Frosties mentioned Smith returning permenantly before I quoted my "source" on that I would usually expect you to have used that function.

So far?

It's hardly gone anywhere (nor was ever likely to) other than my referring to Coach McClennan's actions re Burgess' selections since his debut and posting articles with directly attributable quotes by both player and coach.

Double boost for the Rhinos
22nd August 2008

Young guns Luke Burgess and Carl Ablett have given Leeds Rhinos a massive fillip ahead of tonight’s trip to Wigan Warriors – by agreeing new contracts. Prop Burgess – who had a year remaining on his existing deal – has signed a two-year extension which will keep him at Rhinos until the end of 2011. Second-row/centre Ablett, 22, would have been out of contract this year, but has put pen to paper on a new one-year deal. Burgess, 21, has made a big impression for the Rhinos since breaking into the senior side five months ago, while Ablett is in his fifth season as a first team player and was a member of last year’s Grand Final-winning 17. Burgess’ new deal is a setback for Bradford Bulls, who had been planning a move for the player at the end of next season. ”=#FF4000I had another year left on my contract, but it’s nice to get things done early,” said Burgess. “=#FF0000Now I can just get on with the rest of this year and the next three years. It has been a good year and it’s the icing on the cake to sign a new contract.” Burgess said he was “=#FF0000encouraged” the club were so keen to keep him on board. He added: “=#FF0000It gives me confidence that the club and coaches are pleased with my progress and I am looking forward to concentrating on my rugby and helping the team to win some silverware. The coaching staff have been brilliant with me. Brian McClennan, Francis Cummins and Willie Poching have helped me to develop my game and our conditioner, Jason Davidson, has got me in great shape and kept on at me all year to improve my fitness. I have done a lot of one-on-one work with Francis Cummins after training and he and Willie work with me on the weak areas of my game. Brian has been a massive influence on me, given me a lot of confidence and taught me great things.” Ablett declared himself “really pleased” to be staying at Leeds for another year. ”Hopefully I can build on this season in 2009,” he said. ”I have been playing a lot at centre this year, which has helped to develop different aspects of my game and I am happy to play wherever the coaching staff feel I can best help the team. I am still only 22 and I am hoping to continue to learn and develop at the Rhinos.” Head coach Brian McClennan said: “=#0000BFThis is terrific news for the club. To secure two of our top young rising stars is great news. Luke has had a great year to date in his first season in the top grade and his potential is enormous. The club’s policy is to keep people like him on board and to progress talented young players through the ranks. Those who work hard and achieve are rewarded with upgraded and extended contracts and I think that is the right way to do things. Luke has been through our academy system and that has come to fruition in the first team this season. Hopefully he will keep improving and turn into a top Super League player. Carl has shown terrific versatility this year because of injuries. He has shown that in the centres but is still only young. We know he will keep on improving and it is good to have him on board for next season.”



Try it and see if you get any further than I did. Sometimes the function is use-full other times it's use-less.

You want me to help you prove your assertions? Do it yourself.

Where have I asserted anything?

So we've both skirted around the issue of whether I was first without committing ourselves either way.