Just watched the England vs. NZ game at Olympic Stadium. Frustrating performce but most disappointing two players for me were Gareth Widdopp and Elliott Whitehead. They werent the only poor ones but I was disappointed with them.

Widdop's kicking was poor. Williams' wasn't great but given his experience Widdop should be doing more. Very little spark in attack and he neds to be more vocal and show more leadership skills. If I was McNamara i'd play Matty Smith and Williams in the halves next week. Drop Widdop. Matty Smith and George Williams will have the experience of playing together at club level and will both be on familiar territory at home in Wigan.

Elliott Whitehead was also incredibly disappointing. He looks exhausted and flat footed whenever he plays at international level. He was similarly poor in the game he played for England in 4 Nations last year. We all have a good impression of Whitehead but im starting to wonder whether it's just because most of us watch him when Catalan home games are on TV. Catlan always play well at home but i get the impression Whitehead is poor for most Catalan away games but perhaps we dont see this as much with less TV coverage. I think Whitehead will struggle in NRL next season.

Anyway, at least they both are willing to pull the shirt on for their country and give up their off season for the internationals, unlike some St Helens players who would seemingly rather be on holiday.

Bit of a wake up call for some on here who thought Widdop would have been an excellent signing.

He's been carried through his NRL career by those around him, very ordinary player. Can't command a team or grab the game by the scruff of the neck in the same way that such as Sinfield did.

Williams was equally as bad and showed he is not international class at the moment. Agree about widdop, he must be the only NRL based half back who can't kick.

Williams was considerably worse than Widdop. I know OP is a Wigan fan and that Widdop was poor as well, but come on, the young lad fell apart in the second half. I think Williams will be a top player but he has no kicking game whatsoever even at the best of times.

Williams was worse. At least he has the mitigation of being young and inexperienced at this level. Neither of them can kick and neither of them seem capable of passing to their right.
Still, when your forwards seem to offer not even the slightest hint they might offload or pass all you get us a slow PTB and a fully set snd advancing defensive line.
It was like watching a pack from 1982. Biff, barge, up the middle, repeat until the game ends. We don't need any actual backs in that side, they are totally redundant with that game plan.

Tackled well though. NZ only got over once and that looked very dubious to me.

Most boring game of rugby I've seen for ages.
Made union look good today.

What was wrong with Widdop? He battled hard on his own as the only half back. His fellow half back Williams was massively out of his depth and should have been off at half time, simply horrendous. A good player in there, but must be dropped for next week.

I agree on Whithead and thought he was pants last week. Got to get Westwood in for him.

I don't think any England player had a better than average game, to be fair, but Widdop was the worst of the lot, IMO. He's managed to get to where he is because he's been carried by some of the legends of the game, at all levels. He looked good along side Cronk and Smith at Melbourne, and he's previously been carried by the likes of Tomkins and Sinfield for England, and now that he's being asked to be the main play maker for St George, and England his average skill set is being exposed. If he wasn't in the NRL I doubt anyone would give him the time of day.
Williams is in his first season, and will sometimes put in performances like he did today, and that's the gamble you take with picking young players. He'll need to widen his skill set though, he has a good kicking game close to the line, and has a good step, and offload, but the other areas of his game need some serious work.
We're desperate for a half who can actually pass a ball, though. McGuire, and Brown are the only ones knocking around SL with world class passing games, but they're both in their 30s now. Tomkins also has this ability and has been badly missed.

I don't watch much nrl so all I really know about widdop is what gets reported. Have to say I've been very unimpressed. I'm pretty sure mags could be doing a better job. Are the two test appearances by widdop really representative of his nrl form over the last 2/3 years?

Williams, Widdop and Bateman were the selection reasons we lost today.

No creativity in the Halves, poor link play, poor kicking game and poor decision making.

Widdops kicking game is terrible but he is decent in defense.

Williams is poor in Attack and Defense (Not ready for Internationals)

Bateman is a Second Rower being asked to play in the Centre where he has no skill. He had multiple opportunities to pass early to Hall and either didn't take it or passed too late. We have Centre Options available, use them!

The Main issue is McBanana. He hasn't a Scooby Doo. This is his Coaching Board.

Whitehead I felt went ok. I would keep the sane team next week as the whole point of this series for me is gelling combinations towards the World Cup.

3 players I think need to improve though are Williams, Widdop and Hardaker.

Williams was poor but maybe you can excuse that as he is still finding his feet at this level. Comfortably the worst player on the field in a key position.

Widdop should be taking control of games. He us a top class half but has not shown it yet for England in this series.

Hardaker needs to put himself in the line as an attacking option, he was anonymous again today offering no options.

Big plusses for me is Mike Cooper who has come on so much from spending time in the NRL.

Watkins, huge talent but always felt he needed to work harder off the ball at thus level, and he was great in that respect today.

Bateman, being played out of position strong carry and showed enthusiasm and desire through out, even when others around him seemed to drop off the pace for spells.

A poor attacking game from both sides with England totally lacking any ambition which was a poor advert for the game in the Capital. Perhaps this was a negative game plan from the coach but we will need changes for next week as NZ took a step forward while we took several steps back. Had Graham scored the try it would have been a hollow victory.

Williams was way out of his depth providing no link with our potential match winners and Widdop was not a lot better. It is a poor state of affairs when a forward is chosen to start an International at centre and his handling limitations and decision making were exposed. Our defence was good but our kicking game and attack were terrible. Hardaker never entered the line at pace and he made no impression with his kick returns and was usually driven back like a rag doll. Roby looked under par too with little spark.

I would play Westwood next week and perhaps Smith may be a better bet than Williams but we really need a creative player like McGuire. There were times when their big forwards looked tired trudging back out of position and we should have given the ball some air to try and exploit this.

Yes but some of us took into account SL isn't anywhere near the same level as Internationals. Not being able to rip the Kiwis apart doesn't mean he couldn't perform well against SL opposition.

Disagree about Hardaker and Bateman. I think you've got them mixed up.

Halves to Forwards. Forwards to Forwards. Use the Wings as Forwards. Use the Centres as Forwards. No room to have an excellent attacking Fullback to sweep into the backline is there?

The problem is McBanana!

What's frustrating is that in the last two years we've tried being more adventurous in games but have taken a big backwards step is series.

It's like McNamara knows he has to deliver a series win this time and he's gone for the old grind out a win at all costs style but it backfired today. We saw first hand when our makeshift side play NZ that they didn't like it when we play attacking adventurous rugby and England have done the total opposite.

Whilst people talk about how good our forwards options are (particularly with Sam Burgess coming back) I'm underwhelmed by our 2nd row options. Lots of very good SL 2nd rowers but not really any International ones.

Our second row has been for a while the only thing good about our pack but the moment we get the Props the second row now looks week.

Burgess for me needs to play in the second row once he is back and up to speed.

Faz and Bateman are too lightweight at this level and maybe provide backup don't cut it at this level as starters.

In my opinion there are 2 players capable of sorting the problem. Whitehead moving to the NRL will hopefully see him achieve his potential and he has the potential to be a top second row.

There is also the forgotten man Joel Tomkins, struggled since his return at times but now has a full offseason to get sorted. If he can get back to the player he could be he could provide the size and aggression we lack.

If only Hock wasn't such a prat!

Halves were very poor. Williams is no where near international level just yet. I'd drop Williams and Bateman and play gale and cudjoe. I honestly can't understand how McGuire was so over looked. We are lacking a kicking game, long passing game and game management. I would say defensively we were very good but no spark in attack. Need to get the 3/4s some ball early and in space.

As a second row playing centre I though Bateman did well today, he certainly put in a very good defensive effort - he hits and sticks like an octopus. But his error count with the ball was pretty poor.
Watkins got given the ball early once and caused havoc, beat defenders and offloaded. Ironically in commentary Jiffy Davies said Hardaker needed to hold onto the ball and pass later. Thankfully Hardaker knows that you give the ball early to Watkins and things happen.
The main problem through out the game was the total predictability of our forwards with the ball. If you are not going to pass and don't threaten an offload as soon as you are caught by a couple of defenders the rest of the defensive line can retreat and get set which is what the Kiwis soon realised they could do - contrast that with England who had to surround the ball carrier and dare not get back until the ref called held or the kiwi attacker was on the ground. We were too easy to defend against. It helps even less when it becomes blindingly obvious that neither of our half backs, but Williams in particular, can't pass to the right.
We didn't attack anywhere but inside the Kiwi 10 metre zone. Hardaker and all the outside backs had absolutely nothing to do on attack, no space, no structure. Even then, if FGB had done anything other than face plant the grass we would probably have come away with a draw and a series win today.
The easiest thing a poor coach can do is get the defence right, they should be judged on how their teams use the ball.
And, finally, our kicking game was absolute sh**e - again. Field position is so critical in international rugby, we failed spectacularly to put anything resembling a decent kick in. A shame because the defensive effort was absolutely mammoth and the player should be commended for the commitment they showed.

If we had Percival for the centre position we could move Bateman into the back row.
I'd be tempted to throw Gale in for Williams and mcgilvary for Burgess.

The play has been dull, easy to defend against and very pedestrian .
One man up play.pointless..well..almost, it did score two points .

I have consistently said I cannot see what anybody sees in Widdop...."marquee player" my foot. My guess is if he wasn't playing in the NRL he wouldn't be selected. Awful. Williams too has been disappointing, but he is obviously better at SO allowed to do the off the cuff stuff with a controlling SH alongside him. I'd drop Widdop and try Gale at SH.....Williams more than Widdop needs to be persevered with IMO (he can only get better; Widdop is poop)
However, the main problem is a boring, up your jumper one up rugby from the forwards. Oh for a Leeds type off load game. NZ look amateurish in this 'Leed gameplan' by comparison. What a wasted opportunity to promote all that is good about RL in the capital. I said last week's match was boring; this one was even worse !!!!!!

Bateman is a good terrior like forward that can ably fill in at centre; but to pick him twice as an international centre is dire. Is there nobody better? Genuinely! What about Shenton? He does actually play LC....or Percival if thinking about the future.
Hardaker's strengths have had no chance to be highlighted; chiming timely into the line is probably not his best ability. Watkins is about the only one that looks anything like a threat. Oh for some decent ball.
I'd switch Joe Burgess to LC (can't be any worse than leaving him like a RU winger out on a limb with never the remotest chance of the game coming his way) and bring in McGildray(sp) on the RW.
Bateman into the second row at Farrel's expense.

NZ are nowehere near what you would consider to be a 'world champion' side and this has been the best opportunity to achieve good international recognition for some time; playing like this again next week means IMO that NZ will snatch this series in another borefest in Wigan.

The highlight for me was watching the old 1978 footage of Colin Welland in the dressing rooms.....don't remember that at the time.

Great to see some of my old boyhood heroes in Big Roy and the Bionic Barrel

I'd imagine McGuire wasn't considered because he won't feature in the next WC. I'd stick with Williams; ordinarily I'd stick with Widdop too but our halves were so deficient today I don't see a way to win the decider if both play. Stick Gale in; we've nowt to lose now.

And to think, all the stick Sinfield got for being picked at HB for England.

England in this series so far have reminded of Leeds 2013-14. Defensively sound and hard to score points against. But in attack just try and grind away and don't get the backs involved properly.

Without huge changes to the squad we were able to change our style completely so wouldn't write off anybody in this England team just yet. The finger has to be fully pointed at McNamara for this series so far. Whilst Gale has had a great year I can't see how he'd have turned things around today.

Aye, I'm sure he'd be spectacular against Salford and Widnes.

Unfortunately, those aren't the teams you have to beat if you want to pick up major honours.

He's incredibly one-dimensional and offers no on field leadership.

What Gale can do, which Widdop seemingly struggles with, is playing what's in front of him and taking what the defence gives you. He's also got a kicking game both long and short.

If McNamara is happy enough with the performance both his halves have put in over 160 minutes, then he's further off the pace than I thought.