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| Quote ="cod'ead"The prtoblem with buying in your scenario is that for many, it creates little more than wage slaves, who will accept working under any conditions, prooviding they can meet the mortgage at the end of the month. It will also lead to yet another house-value bubble as was evidenced in the 1980s with right-to-buy. I'd contend that before we build more homes to be bought at a subsidised value, we should readjust the mindset that there really is nothing wrong with renting. It worked perfectly well for decades before right-to-buy was introduced and there's absolutely no reason it cannot work again'"
Fair points but I was talking about flooding the market with houses at cost housing whilst not touching social housing (which was Half the problem with right to buy as the balance was shifted with not a lot of extra properties built to restock social housing).
If you then add that to your plan then there will be a real change as a house will be worth it's material cost and not what some estate agent 'thinks' its worth.
As a knock on effect you would destroy private landlords stranglehold as well as seeing current housing stock prices drop in line with the new stock all IMHO obviously. |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/oct/13/imf-george-osborne-austerity-76bn?CMP=twt_guAnother piece on Gidiot's failure[/url'"
The problem is of course that ideology gets in the way of government, in recent decades we've seem flavours of government that on the surface have been very similar, in decades prior to those (the ones that you and I recall) there was a very real difference between voting Labour or voting Conservative - poles apart.
Yet still there is the underlying ideology that splits the parties - socialism vs "light" government, I'll call it Republican government because its modelled on the American Republican theories but with a slightly different upper tier, the Tories will never call it a Republic because in this country that means dispatching the Queen to The Tower, but in everything else the fiscal theories are the same - the public do not need a government to care for them from cradle to grave, they need more of their own money to stay in their pockets so that they can make the decisions that government should be making for them, how do I pay for my retirement in 40 years time, how will I care for myself when I'm 80 years old and struggling to cope, how will I pay for my wife to give birth, who do I call now I've broken my leg in the park and I haven't made the insurance premiums these last three months because of the overtime cuts ?
Standing behind the two grinning idiots who currently front up the Tories are the policy makers and their policies are based on the Republican model of light government, of "personal freedom of choice" and of the old chestnut "market forces", so they don't really have to do anything at all about recessions, depressions and social crisis, "the market" will sort it out eventually and in the meantime here's five years in which to pare the social government model down into the preferable light government model and pretend that its not really their fault at all.
Then all you have to do is to convince people that its not their fault at all and they need to keep taking the medicine beyond 2015 - the posturing and maneuvering that will take place in the run up to that election will be hilarious. |
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| Quote ="sally cinnamon" <snip> '"
Still no response to these facts from Ajw71 and samwire?
How very odd. |
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''Once you realise that trickle-down economics does not work, you will see the excessive tax cuts for the rick as what they are - a simple upward redistribution of income, rather than a way to make all of us richer, as we were told.''
Ha-Joon Chang -: [i23 Things They Don't Tell You About Capitalism. [/i
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Fact is Labour ran the economy at a deficit during boom years.
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Fact is Labour ran the economy at a deficit during boom years.'"
I think you're finished now, might have been better if you hadn't tried to respond at all. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"I think you're finished now, might have been better if you hadn't tried to respond at all.'"
Do you disagree with this fact? |
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Most would expect the deficit to drop in times of plentiful tax revenues, but if you look at the figures that wasn't really the case in the final years of Blair nor under Brown. I agree not a lot he could have done about the global banking greed meltdown
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Another misleading debate here is about 'the boom years'. The period where the right wingers attack Labour for running deficits is 2002-2008 (the budget was in surplus before that) where they say surpluses should have been run because we had an 'economic boom'. Long run trend growth in the UK in the 30 years leading up to the financial crisis was around 2.8%, so really a 'boom' is when you have growth significantly above that and a 'bust' is when you have growth significantly below that (especially when growth is negative).
All the GDP figures are available on the ONS website here: www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and- ... able-id=A2
This is data series ABMI, the measure reported for GDP. The series there just gives the absolute numbers so you can calculate the growth rate from one year to the next by dividing the second year by the first, subtracting 1 and multiplying by 100 to get a percentage.
First if you look at the 30 year period leading up to the crisis, ie 1977 to 2007, the ABMI in 1977 was 646297 and in 2007 was 1474153. So [[(1474153/646297)^(1/30)-1*100 gives you the 30 year trend growth rate, which is 2.786%.
Now you can compare the annual GDP growth rates from 1992-97 with the period from 2002-07. I have put the annual GDP growth rate in blue and the budget balance (negative indicates deficit) in red
1991/92 =#0000FF0.8% =#FF0000-2.9%
1992/93 =#0000FF3.2% =#FF4000-6.4%
1993/94 =#0000FF4.5% =#FF0000-7.7%
1994/95 =#0000FF3.2% =#FF0000-6.5%
1995/96 =#0000FF3.1% =#FF0000-5.2%
1996/97 =#0000FF3.9% =#FF4000-3.7%
2001/02 =#0000FF2.4% =#FF0000+0.7%
2002/03 =#0000FF3.8% =#FF0000-1.8%
2003/04 =#0000FF2.9% =#FF0000-1.3%
2004/05 =#0040FF2.8% =#FF0000-3.1%
2005/06 =#0000FF2.6% =#FF0000-3.3%
2006/07 =#0000FF3.6% =#FF0000-2.4%
The growth rates in the 1990s were higher than in the 2000s, and the deficits being run by the Conservative government in the 1990s were much higher than those being run by Labour in the 2000s leading up to the financial crisis. But compared to the long run trend growth rate of 2.8%, what went on in the 2000s was not a boom, it had two years significantly above trend growth (2003 and 2007), whereas in the 1990s, growth was above 3% most of the time and the year of 1994 with very strong growth included a very large deficit!
As I explained in my last post the real reason for this was the much higher rate of unemployment in the 1990s which meant there was a large benefit bill draining the public finances, which wasn't the case in the 2000s. That's why the Tories don't ask the question "why did we run such large deficits in the boom years" in the 1990s, because they know the answer was due to unemployment.
I don't want to make this post too long so won't analyse the rest of the data but what we had in the years leading up to the recession was not a 'boom', we had had many years of around trend growth without a blip, which is a different thing. We had not had a recession since 1990/91. The 'boom and bust' that Gordon Brown referred to of the Tory years was a bust from 1980 to 1982, followed by a very strong boom from 1986 to 1990, followed by a bust from 1990 to 1992, followed by a boom from 1993 to 1996.
Where you had a 'boom' in the Labour years (well really going back to 1995, but most of that was Labour) was a boom in property prices. This meant individuals felt wealthier. Also there was a boom in lending, which was partly underpinned by and partly continued the growth of those property prices. This boom in lending was not underpinned by similar levels of economic growth, so the result was a large accumulation of private debt.
As a final point, just to illustrate the depth of the financial crash, the growth figures and deficits in the last few years were:
2007/08 =#0040FF-0.9% =#FF0000-2.5%
2008/09 =#0000FF-4.0% =#FF0000-4.9%
2009/10 =#0000FF1.8% =#FF4000-10.9%
2010/11 =#0040FF0.8% =#FF0000-9.9%
Had we continued on the path of trend growth of 2.8% from 2007, we would have had GDP 14.4% higher than it was at the end of 2007, so the depth of the recession and lack of pace of the recovery has lost an enormous amount of potential output. |
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Another misleading debate here is about 'the boom years'. The period where the right wingers attack Labour for running deficits is 2002-2008 (the budget was in surplus before that) where they say surpluses should have been run because we had an 'economic boom'. Long run trend growth in the UK in the 30 years leading up to the financial crisis was around 2.8%, so really a 'boom' is when you have growth significantly above that and a 'bust' is when you have growth significantly below that (especially when growth is negative).
All the GDP figures are available on the ONS website here: www.ons.gov.uk/ons/datasets-and- ... able-id=A2
This is data series ABMI, the measure reported for GDP. The series there just gives the absolute numbers so you can calculate the growth rate from one year to the next by dividing the second year by the first, subtracting 1 and multiplying by 100 to get a percentage.
First if you look at the 30 year period leading up to the crisis, ie 1977 to 2007, the ABMI in 1977 was 646297 and in 2007 was 1474153. So [[(1474153/646297)^(1/30)-1*100 gives you the 30 year trend growth rate, which is 2.786%.
Now you can compare the annual GDP growth rates from 1992-97 with the period from 2002-07. I have put the annual GDP growth rate in blue and the budget balance (negative indicates deficit) in red
1991/92 =#0000FF0.8% =#FF0000-2.9%
1992/93 =#0000FF3.2% =#FF4000-6.4%
1993/94 =#0000FF4.5% =#FF0000-7.7%
1994/95 =#0000FF3.2% =#FF0000-6.5%
1995/96 =#0000FF3.1% =#FF0000-5.2%
1996/97 =#0000FF3.9% =#FF4000-3.7%
2001/02 =#0000FF2.4% =#FF0000+0.7%
2002/03 =#0000FF3.8% =#FF0000-1.8%
2003/04 =#0000FF2.9% =#FF0000-1.3%
2004/05 =#0040FF2.8% =#FF0000-3.1%
2005/06 =#0000FF2.6% =#FF0000-3.3%
2006/07 =#0000FF3.6% =#FF0000-2.4%
The growth rates in the 1990s were higher than in the 2000s, and the deficits being run by the Conservative government in the 1990s were much higher than those being run by Labour in the 2000s leading up to the financial crisis. But compared to the long run trend growth rate of 2.8%, what went on in the 2000s was not a boom, it had two years significantly above trend growth (2003 and 2007), whereas in the 1990s, growth was above 3% most of the time and the year of 1994 with very strong growth included a very large deficit!
As I explained in my last post the real reason for this was the much higher rate of unemployment in the 1990s which meant there was a large benefit bill draining the public finances, which wasn't the case in the 2000s. That's why the Tories don't ask the question "why did we run such large deficits in the boom years" in the 1990s, because they know the answer was due to unemployment.
I don't want to make this post too long so won't analyse the rest of the data but what we had in the years leading up to the recession was not a 'boom', we had had many years of around trend growth without a blip, which is a different thing. We had not had a recession since 1990/91. The 'boom and bust' that Gordon Brown referred to of the Tory years was a bust from 1980 to 1982, followed by a very strong boom from 1986 to 1990, followed by a bust from 1990 to 1992, followed by a boom from 1993 to 1996.
Where you had a 'boom' in the Labour years (well really going back to 1995, but most of that was Labour) was a boom in property prices. This meant individuals felt wealthier. Also there was a boom in lending, which was partly underpinned by and partly continued the growth of those property prices. This boom in lending was not underpinned by similar levels of economic growth, so the result was a large accumulation of private debt.
As a final point, just to illustrate the depth of the financial crash, the growth figures and deficits in the last few years were:
2007/08 =#0040FF-0.9% =#FF0000-2.5%
2008/09 =#0000FF-4.0% =#FF0000-4.9%
2009/10 =#0000FF1.8% =#FF4000-10.9%
2010/11 =#0040FF0.8% =#FF0000-9.9%
Had we continued on the path of trend growth of 2.8% from 2007, we would have had GDP 14.4% higher than it was at the end of 2007, so the depth of the recession and lack of pace of the recovery has lost an enormous amount of potential output. | |
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Considering the extra expenditure on fighting a couple of wars then I think Labour did a reasonable job in terms of expenditure.
The Tories would have taken the exact same military options given the circumstances.
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Fact is Labour ran the economy at a deficit during boom years.'"
Your answer is above.
I really think that you are done here now, but please do go back and check with your tutor to see if you've missed any more dogma that you'd like debunking. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Your answer is above.
I really think that you are done here now, but please do go back and check with your tutor to see if you've missed any more dogma that you'd like debunking.'"
Haha oh [iyou[/i think I'm done do you? Is that how it works here, [iyou[/i think I'm done so you don't answer any further questions, and ignore any further points being made.
Great way to debate, did you learn that from socilaist worker. Pathetic. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Haha oh [iyou[/i think I'm done do you? Is that how it works here, [iyou[/i think I'm done so you don't answer any further questions, and ignore any further points being made.
Great way to debate, did you learn that from socilaist worker. Pathetic.'"
He thinks you made a complete plonker of yourself. Several other people think so too.
However, it's entirely your decision if you wish to go on illustrating your lack of intellectual rigour, your inability to deal with facts – and construct anything like a proper argument dealing with those facts – and your own lack of self-awareness on this score. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Haha oh [iyou[/i think I'm done do you? Is that how it works here, [iyou[/i think I'm done so you don't answer any further questions, and ignore any further points being made.
Great way to debate, did you learn that from socilaist worker. Pathetic.'"
There's no need to keep answering your questions, not when the poster known as "Sally Cinnamon" has so eloquently replied to all of them in two posts, one on this page, one on the last - have a look for them because I'm not convinced that you've actually read them.
There's no need to go around and around in circles for another five pages of your repeated dogma but if you feel that any aspect of your questions were left unanswered then let us know.
But you never did answer my question of a few pages back, we know that you're young enough to have not fully appreciated the previous Tory government (you confirmed that some time ago), so where exactly did you learn your dogma from ? |
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| Quote ="Mintball"He thinks you made a complete plonker of yourself. Several other people think so too.
However, it's entirely your decision if you wish to go on illustrating your lack of intellectual rigour, your inability to deal with facts – and construct anything like a proper argument dealing with those facts – and your own lack of self-awareness on this score.'"
Sorry dearie, I think it's just another case of the typical pattern of 'debating' on RLfans. After a few posts when your own ignorance and delusions are being challeneged resort to statements about the other posters education or intelligence when you know nothing about them.
A little clique that likes to hunt as pack and jump on anyone who doesn't share their messed up socilaist views on the world. |
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Ignorance and delusions born of the Office for National Statistics.
LOL
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Ignorance and delusions born of the Office for National Statistics.
LOL'"
So in your opinion Labour did not leave the economy in a mess in 2010 when they left office? |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Sorry dearie, I think it's just another case of the typical pattern of 'debating' on RLfans. After a few posts when your own ignorance and delusions are being challeneged resort to statements about the other posters education or intelligence when you know nothing about them.
[uA little clique that likes to hunt as pack and jump on anyone who doesn't share their messed up socilaist views on the world.[/u'"
At least your paranoia is a match for your delusion.  |
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| Quote ="Ajw71":2gm6ldrlSorry dearie, I think it's just another case of the typical pattern of 'debating' on RLfans. After a few posts when your own ignorance and delusions are being challeneged resort to statements about the other posters education or intelligence when you know nothing about them.
A little clique that likes to hunt as pack and jump on anyone who doesn't share their messed up socilaist views on the world.'" :2gm6ldrl
So, let me get this right.
Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.
If I remember correctly you're 27. So at least you can't blame Labour for the education system that produced you ... |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Sorry dearie, I think it's just another case of the typical pattern of 'debating' on RLfans. After a few posts when your own ignorance and delusions are being challeneged resort to statements about the other posters education or intelligence when you know nothing about them.
A little clique that likes to hunt as pack and jump on anyone who doesn't share their messed up socilaist views on the world.'"
I'm part of no clique.
Half of the posters on this thread have had more than one run in with me.
Doesn't stop me agreeing with them that you are talking grade A bull though. |
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| Quote ="WIZEB"At least your paranoia is a match for your delusion.
'"
Another one of the pack, all we need now is TB, Big Graeme and Him to have a full house.
Strange how you all consider yourselves to be powerhouses of political debate but stay on a socialist forum in your safe zone where you have your pack to back each other up and your strange views are rarely challenged.
Why not test yourselves and expand your horizons a bit? |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Another one of the pack, all we need now is TB, Big Graeme and Him to have a full house.
Strange how you all consider yourselves to be powerhouses of political debate but stay on a socialist forum in your safe zone where you have your pack to back each other up and your strange views are rarely challenged.
Why not test yourselves and expand your horizons a bit?'"
Strange how you appear to 'think' that you know where else everybody debates etc.
I'll give you a clue: you don't.
But what a poor little put-upon boy. Makes one wonder why you bother coming here to be 'bullied' by this appalling "pack" that you obviously believe are not very bright. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"It's a fact that Labour operated a deficit during the boom years. They didn't fix the roof when the sun was shining. They claimed to have ended boom and bust, their own minsters admitted there was no money left.
This is Labour's economic legacy. This is why the economy is still in such bad shape and this is why the British public will not trust them to run the economy again in a very long time.'"
It is a fact that you are thick.
It is a fact that all governments operate a deficit. You've been given facts showing this for the last 30-odd years (there are plenty of stats showing this reality over a century and more) – spend a second or so actually looking at them.
If you condemn Labour for operating a deficit, then you have to condemn all governments for doing exactly the same.
It is not why the economy is in the mess it is.
That is down to a recession that was caused by the global cock-ups of the banks. If Brown had not acted quickly to bail out the banks in the UK, the mess here might have been far greater. As mentioned earlier, some economists believe it would have led to a depression rather than a recession.
There are very serious questions about Labour and regulation – but again, if you condemn the lack of regulation, then you have to condemn those who deregulated in the first place (and now want even further deregulation) and understand what such demands are a part of, ideologically.
You won't do that, because you're only interested in maintaining a myth – or, at best, a very small percentage of the true picture, and preferably without any context.
You want to go: 'oh look – Labour left a mess!' without the context of why the economy was in a mess at the time. When someone tries to explain that, you metaphorically put your fingers in your ears and go: 'Blah blah blah – not listening – not interested!'
If you seriously imagine that that is something like a proper way of debating, then you're an even bigger fool than you appear. |
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| International Star | 3605 | No
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| Jul 2012 | 13 years | |
| Online | Last Post | Last Page |
| May 2016 | May 2016 | LINK |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"It's a fact that Labour operated a deficit during the boom years. They didn't fix the roof when the sun was shining. They claimed to have ended boom and bust, their own minsters admitted there was no money left.
This is Labour's economic legacy. This is why the economy is still in such bad shape and this is why the British public will not trust them to run the economy again in a very long time.'"
I'll ask you again, who on earth is spoon feeding you this dogma ?
Go back and read the two posts that I suggested you read earlier, no-one is asking you to admit that you're wrong or that you're being a bit of a fool for persisting with the spoon-fed dogma, but just for your own education, read those ONS stats, digest them, and then lets not have any more silly statements eh ? |
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