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| Quote ="Ajw71"I sense you are a bit of a glass half empty kind of guy. Jobs are good, whatever side of whatever fence you sit on.'"
Indeed. However, if you bin off nearly as many jobs as you create then the net effect is rather less impressive.
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| Quote ="Staffs FC"Good news though nonetheless ?
Isn't it ?'"
Of course it is, it's great news. But let's not pretend it had anything to do with the 2012 Budget.
A little bit of research tells me that the current Chairman of GSK is Sir Christopher Gent, who aside from running the bastion of morality that is Vodafone and serving on the compensation committee of the board at Lehman Brothers that authorised the payout for its failed CEO, Dick Fuld, who received $34 m in 2007 and $40.5 m in 2006, was Chairman of the Young Conservatives in the 70's, served on the Tax Reform Commission established by the then Shadow Chancellor. Three guesses who that was?
Oh and he's donated over £140,000 to the Conservative Party over the last few years.
But then it could all just be a co-incidence...
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| Quote ="Kosh"Indeed. However, if you bin off nearly as many jobs as you create then the net effect is rather less impressive.'"
And if you work to ensure that wages in general are decreasing (apart from for those at the very top) then you illustrate utter economic illiteracy and also an abject inhumanity.
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The difference is under Labour they would not have had their ESA benefit stopped like the Tories have done. They would have still been able to claim. Under the Tories they would have one year on ESA and within that year they would have to either "get better" or find a job. At least Labour aren't as heartless as to leave them without any income whatsoever.
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The difference is under Labour they would not have had their ESA benefit stopped like the Tories have done. They would have still been able to claim. Under the Tories they would have one year on ESA and within that year they would have to either "get better" or find a job. At least Labour aren't as heartless as to leave them without any income whatsoever.
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| Quote ="Him"Of course it is, it's great news. But let's not pretend it had anything to do with the 2012 Budget.
A little bit of research tells me that the current Chairman of GSK is Sir Christopher Gent, who aside from running the bastion of morality that is Vodafone and serving on the compensation committee of the board at Lehman Brothers that authorised the payout for its failed CEO, Dick Fuld, who received $34 m in 2007 and $40.5 m in 2006, was Chairman of the Young Conservatives in the 70's, served on the Tax Reform Commission established by the then Shadow Chancellor. Three guesses who that was?
Oh and he's donated over £140,000 to the Conservative Party over the last few years.
But then it could all just be a co-incidence...'"
No I don't think it's coincidence either it was stage managed for the day after the budget. Everyone knows that.
The people who will be employed, or re employed, as a result of it wont be too fussed about about the timing of it or indeed the possibly dodgy history of the Chairman. They'll just be pleased to be in employment I should imagine.
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Quote ="Ajw71"1000 new jobs to be created by GSK in Cubria following confirmation in the Budget that the Government will introduce a "patent box" to encourage investment in research and development in the UK.
www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 81006.html
Brilliant news, more of the same please.'"
I'd do a bit of a google if I weren't so busy this morning but anyone with half a minute to spare might want to find out how many jobs were lost at the GSK site in Barnard Castle a couple of years ago when the company first threatened to pull out of the site completely and then mothballed a huge swathe of it - I suspect that the number of jobs they are creating in that town is substantially less than the number they laid off just a couple of years ago.
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Quote ="Ajw71"1000 new jobs to be created by GSK in Cubria following confirmation in the Budget that the Government will introduce a "patent box" to encourage investment in research and development in the UK.
www.independent.co.uk/news/busin ... 81006.html
Brilliant news, more of the same please.'"
I'd do a bit of a google if I weren't so busy this morning but anyone with half a minute to spare might want to find out how many jobs were lost at the GSK site in Barnard Castle a couple of years ago when the company first threatened to pull out of the site completely and then mothballed a huge swathe of it - I suspect that the number of jobs they are creating in that town is substantially less than the number they laid off just a couple of years ago.
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"I'd do a bit of a google if I weren't so busy this morning but anyone with half a minute to spare might want to find out how many jobs were lost at the GSK site in Barnard Castle a couple of years ago when the company first threatened to pull out of the site completely and then mothballed a huge swathe of it - I suspect that the number of jobs they are creating in that town is substantially less than the number they laid off just a couple of years ago.'"
[url=http://www.google.co.uk/#hl=en&output=search&sclient=psy-ab&q=gsk+redundancies&oq=gsk+redundancies&aq=f&aqi=g3&aql=&gs_l=hp.3..0l3.2830663l2834339l1l2835971l16l16l0l3l3l2l950l3989l1j6j2j0j1j1j2l13l0.frgbld.&psj=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=485b52c7a81c1469&biw=1432&bih=729Fill yer boots[/url
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Just recieved this email.
[iDPAC
________________________________________
London Meeting Unites Resistance to Remploy Closures
Posted: 22 Mar 2012 06:34 AM PDT
A meeting called by DPAC on 20th March brought together Remploy workers with campaigns offering support to resist the planned closures of 36 out of 54 Remploy factories by August this year. DPAC members were joined by representatives from the Right to Work campaign, UKUncut, and Winvisible, as well as from a number of unions and local anti-cuts groups.
Remploy convenor Les Woodward who attended the meeting in London on his birthday said it had filled him with an immense amount of confidence. He said that unlike in 2007 when workers opposed the closure of Remploy factories by New Labour, this time they are not alone. Following those closures less than 6% of workers went on to find alternative employment and of those only 5% found employment at an equal or better level. [size=150Former Brixton Remploy worker Ray Ludford described how Remploy factories had been purposefully run into the ground since Michael Portillo took away their preferred supplier status.[/size
Ellen Clifford spoke on behalf of DPAC and gave her thanks to Les for opening DPAC’s eyes to the reality of the struggle. She described it as highly irresponsible to be taking employment away from disabled people when there are no jobs for anyone and when an ever tightening benefits system is leaving disabled people destitute. She said that the government’s education policies show they have no interest in building inclusive societies and if they really cared about disabled people’s access to mainstream employment they would be removing rather than promoting segregated education and investing in Access to Work.
The meeting questioned government figures which suggest the factories are unsustainable and the likelihood of any money saved from the closures being invested in Access to Work. There was also anger at the profit charities are set to make by delivering workfare programmes supporting disabled people into non-existent jobs. Support for the closure rather than the reform of factories into user led enterprises was linked to class attitudes and the devaluation of working class industry.
The meeting called for swift action given the timescale for closures which has just been announced and which has left Remploy workers feeling shell-shocked. A national demonstration is organised for Sheffield on 20th April outside the Department for Work and Pensions office. In addition to this the meeting called for a London meeting to provide an opportunity for MPs and trade unions to come out in official support for the Remploy workers.
To contribute to the Remploy Fighting Fund send donations to Phil Davis, GMB, 22 – 24 Warpole Street, Wimbledon, London, SW19 4DD.
To sign the Save Remploy petition go to: www.saveremployfactories.co.uk/
For more information on how you can get involved in supporting this campaign contact: islingtondpac@gmail.com[/i
So lets not pretend it was all Labours fault, the Tories started it!
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Just recieved this email.
[iDPAC
________________________________________
London Meeting Unites Resistance to Remploy Closures
Posted: 22 Mar 2012 06:34 AM PDT
A meeting called by DPAC on 20th March brought together Remploy workers with campaigns offering support to resist the planned closures of 36 out of 54 Remploy factories by August this year. DPAC members were joined by representatives from the Right to Work campaign, UKUncut, and Winvisible, as well as from a number of unions and local anti-cuts groups.
Remploy convenor Les Woodward who attended the meeting in London on his birthday said it had filled him with an immense amount of confidence. He said that unlike in 2007 when workers opposed the closure of Remploy factories by New Labour, this time they are not alone. Following those closures less than 6% of workers went on to find alternative employment and of those only 5% found employment at an equal or better level. [size=150Former Brixton Remploy worker Ray Ludford described how Remploy factories had been purposefully run into the ground since Michael Portillo took away their preferred supplier status.[/size
Ellen Clifford spoke on behalf of DPAC and gave her thanks to Les for opening DPAC’s eyes to the reality of the struggle. She described it as highly irresponsible to be taking employment away from disabled people when there are no jobs for anyone and when an ever tightening benefits system is leaving disabled people destitute. She said that the government’s education policies show they have no interest in building inclusive societies and if they really cared about disabled people’s access to mainstream employment they would be removing rather than promoting segregated education and investing in Access to Work.
The meeting questioned government figures which suggest the factories are unsustainable and the likelihood of any money saved from the closures being invested in Access to Work. There was also anger at the profit charities are set to make by delivering workfare programmes supporting disabled people into non-existent jobs. Support for the closure rather than the reform of factories into user led enterprises was linked to class attitudes and the devaluation of working class industry.
The meeting called for swift action given the timescale for closures which has just been announced and which has left Remploy workers feeling shell-shocked. A national demonstration is organised for Sheffield on 20th April outside the Department for Work and Pensions office. In addition to this the meeting called for a London meeting to provide an opportunity for MPs and trade unions to come out in official support for the Remploy workers.
To contribute to the Remploy Fighting Fund send donations to Phil Davis, GMB, 22 – 24 Warpole Street, Wimbledon, London, SW19 4DD.
To sign the Save Remploy petition go to: www.saveremployfactories.co.uk/
For more information on how you can get involved in supporting this campaign contact: islingtondpac@gmail.com[/i
So lets not pretend it was all Labours fault, the Tories started it!
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| [url=http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Job-fears-1-000-caravan-workers-East-Yorkshire/story-15598795-detail/story.htmlDefinitely a budget for growth[/url
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"I'd do a bit of a google if I weren't so busy this morning but anyone with half a minute to spare might want to find out how many jobs were lost at the GSK site in Barnard Castle a couple of years ago when the company first threatened to pull out of the site completely and then mothballed a huge swathe of it - I suspect that the number of jobs they are creating in that town is substantially less than the number they laid off just a couple of years ago.'"
The company I work for closed an entire manufacturing facility on the site where I work around the turn of the century resulting in hundreds of voluntary/regular redundancies and loads of (lucrative) early retirements. They are currently re investing around 35 million pounds in the facility that remained. At our plant in Scotland the workforce was trimmed by several hundred between around 2000 to 2007. They are currently investing 55 million over 5 years in new infrastructure which will create jobs and critically safeguard those already there.
Without the trimming of staff and subsequent increase in competitiveness it is likely that the company would have completely ceased operations in the UK. Whilst difficult for some (not all) of those involved in the original cut backs it is a fact of life that business must remain competitive in order to survive. This is life in the private sector. It will be the private sector creating wealth, and jobs, that leads the country out of recession so any news of this type, regardless of what may or may not have happened before, is good for the country. Some people need to look at things from an apolitical perspective on here just once in a while.
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| I think you will find that the GSK development will only create 300 permanent jobs as per GSK info to employees. The figure of 1000 relates to the resource required for the construction will neither be permanent nor even new employment.
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| Quote ="Staffs FC"It will be the private sector creating wealth, and jobs, that leads the country out of recession'"
Just as well given that it was the private sector that got us in this mess to start with.
I think there'll probably be some contribution from the public sector as well. Contrary to current propaganda the public sector does have a role to play in the functioning of the economy.
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| Quote ="Kosh"Just as well given that it was the private sector that got us in this mess to start with.'"
Keep up - it was Gordon Brown and Noo Labour. How quickly people forget
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| Quote ="Kosh"I think there'll probably be some contribution from the public sector as well. Contrary to current propaganda the public sector does have a role to play in the functioning of the economy.'"
Oh I think you're right, however, the private sector will [ilead[/i us out of recession as I said in my post.
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| Quote ="Staffs FC"The company I work for closed an entire manufacturing facility on the site where I work around the turn of the century resulting in hundreds of voluntary/regular redundancies and loads of (lucrative) early retirements. They are currently re investing around 35 million pounds in the facility that remained. At our plant in Scotland the workforce was trimmed by several hundred between around 2000 to 2007. They are currently investing 55 million over 5 years in new infrastructure which will create jobs and critically safeguard those already there.
Without the trimming of staff and subsequent increase in competitiveness it is likely that the company would have completely ceased operations in the UK. Whilst difficult for some (not all) of those involved in the original cut backs it is a fact of life that business must remain competitive in order to survive. This is life in the private sector. It will be the private sector creating wealth, and jobs, that leads the country out of recession so any news of this type, regardless of what may or may not have happened before, is good for the country. Some people need to look at things from an apolitical perspective on here just once in a while.'"
Government policy is never apolitical and it has a direct baring on how or if money is invested in the UK economy.
It is very political of the government to suggest the kind of investment you mention would be happening at a sufficient level to offset the rising level of unemployment we see. I think the answer to that politically motivated suggestion is simply "no, it's not".
If you look at the unemployment figures you can see two sets of stats. The number of jobs lost and the number of jobs created. If you look what you will see is that while many permanent jobs (many in established industries) are lost the kind of jobs created are often part time and in sectors that at little to no value to the economy (i.e. they are not involved in any kind of activity that adds value such as manufacturing).
I for one am rather sick of hearing that Tesco's or Morrison's are opening X number of new stores and so will employ a few thousand people because while no doubt those getting the jobs want them, these jobs are just not the same as an employer like BAE taking on large numbers of people.
The idea the private sector will step in to take up the slack as the public sector is cut back is simply not working. The idea it would was nothing more than a politically inspired theory and the actual observed practice says it is not working.
A big factor why it isn't working is that private industry is sitting on a vast pile of cash it is simply not investing in the UK economy. I read somewhere yesterday it amounts to £750bn!
This makes it all the more crazy to cut corporation tax (something that has seemingly gone unnoticed in the budget) because all this will do is give private industry even more cash to sit on. So instead of being available to the government to invest directly in the UK economy the government chooses to give it to private industry who MIGHT invest it in the UK economy. Given private industry is NOT investing the money they already have, a cut in corporation tax at this time seems as bonkers to me as giving the rich a tax break by scrapping the 50p tax rate.
The governments decision to do this is again a political one. Or if you prefer idealogical.
My own view is that given the economy is in the state it is in the idea the private sector will come to the rescue is a forlorn hope. Therefore it is stupid of the government to take money out of the tax system and give it to companies when they have no idea other than a right wing theory that this will stimulate growth especially when current observed practices suggest that is just not happening.
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| Quote ="Staffs FC"Oh I think you're right, however, the private sector will [ilead[/i us out of recession as I said in my post.'"
Given current Government policy that's pretty much a dead cert.
It's also always worth blowing the trumpet for the public sector given how much bad press it gets generally. People easily forget that when the economy is functioning healthily the private and public sectors are pretty closely intertwined and interdependent.
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| Quote ="Kosh""Granny Tax" is apparently trending on Twitter. Huge own goal by the boy Gideon, made worse by trying to pretend it was just a 'simplification' intended to help poor old dears too daft to fill in forms.
The Tory Tabloids are up in arms because it affects a large chunk of their readership.'"
The age allowance is an anomaly. Its irrational that a pensioner with an income of say £20,000 should pay less tax than a non pensioner earning £20,000. The average pensioner has lower transport & housing costs and doesnt pay NI. And these days, the non pensioner faces the prospect of working for longer and then having a less generous pension.
If the coalition had annnounced at the outset that they were increasing everyone's allowances to the level of the pensioners, whilst also improving the state pension and introducing the triple lock, they'd have been able to get away with this. But they gave pensioners the reasonable expectation that their allowances would go up in line with everyone else. And the manner in which they sneaked it in was reminiscent of Gordon Brown at his worst. Also introducing the change at the same time as cutting the 50p rate is politically stupid.
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| Quote ="Cibaman"The age allowance is an anomaly. Its irrational that a pensioner with an income of say £20,000 should pay less tax than a non pensioner earning £20,000. The average pensioner has lower transport & housing costs and doesnt pay NI. And these days, the non pensioner faces the prospect of working for longer and then having a less generous pension.
If the coalition had annnounced at the outset that they were increasing everyone's allowances to the level of the pensioners, whilst also improving the state pension and introducing the triple lock, they'd have been able to get away with this. But they gave pensioners the reasonable expectation that their allowances would go up in line with everyone else. And the manner in which they sneaked it in was reminiscent of Gordon Brown at his worst. Also introducing the change at the same time as cutting the 50p rate is politically stupid.'"
Could you explain how, if a pensioner finds things difficult financially, they can find another pension provider paying a better rate or move to another part of the country that pasy a better pension? Maybe they could watch more daytime TV and qualify for overtime on their state pension eh?
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| Quote ="Cibaman"The age allowance is an anomaly. Its irrational that a pensioner with an income of say £20,000 should pay less tax than a non pensioner earning £20,000. The average pensioner has lower transport & housing costs and doesnt pay NI. And these days, the non pensioner faces the prospect of working for longer and then having a less generous pension.'"
It is not irrational at all. The reason pensioners got a higher personal allowance is because few of them are on much more than the £10,500 in the first place. My late fathers pension was £4000 a year from his company pension and a state pension on top. Not even £10,500. There will be plenty more who retire soon who will face paying tax on an income LESS that £10,500. That is grossly unfair and why pensioners got a higher tax allowance. To take all of those with a very small income out of paying tax on it.
As to their costs being lower you conveniently forget the cost of heating and electricity which when the house is occupied most of the day is a huge burden.
Any super rich pensioners on £100K or more don't get the personal allowance anyway.
Comparing a pensioners income to that of a younger person is bonkers as well. Younger people in employment have not contributed anything like as much tax and Ni as a pensioner and it is only right those of us in employment do as today's pensioners did which is make those contributions.
In any case why anyone begrudges people who have worked all their lives the extra tax relief they were getting above the working population is beyond me. It amounts to a 20% of the difference between the two allowances which is a grand total of £479 next year for new pensioners.
The fact anyone thinks it unfair or irrational is yet another triumph of selfish Tory propaganda.
Quote If the coalition had annnounced at the outset that they were increasing everyone's allowances to the level of the pensioners, whilst also improving the state pension and introducing the triple lock, they'd have been able to get away with this. But they gave pensioners the reasonable expectation that their allowances would go up in line with everyone else. And the manner in which they sneaked it in was reminiscent of Gordon Brown at his worst. Also introducing the change at the same time as cutting the 50p rate is politically stupid.'"
But they didn't. They are definitely saving money by altering the way the tax allowances work for pensioners and it is not the freezing of the allowances that is the big issue but the abolition of them for new pensioners before the personal allowance reaches £10K. To save £3.3bn and hand back 5p in the pound to millionaires at the same time deserves all the flak it is getting.
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| I liked the comment of one of QT's panelists, 'I doubt giving the rich 5% off their tax will stop them from avoiding tax'
Gideon must think we are stupid and I reckon it will be the end of the Lib Dems, especially after Cables constant back tracking on his comments from before the election. Watch Cable, Clegg and the ginger to$$er Alexander defect to the Tory party at the next election.
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| Quote ="DaveO"It is not irrational at all. The reason pensioners got a higher personal allowance is because few of them are on much more than the £10,500 in the first place. My late fathers pension was £4000 a year from his company pension and a state pension on top. Not even £10,500. There will be plenty more who retire soon who will face paying tax on an income LESS that £10,500. That is grossly unfair and why pensioners got a higher tax allowance. To take all of those with a very small income out of paying tax on it.
As to their costs being lower you conveniently forget the cost of heating and electricity which when the house is occupied most of the day is a huge burden.
Any super rich pensioners on £100K or more don't get the personal allowance anyway.
Comparing a pensioners income to that of a younger person is bonkers as well. Younger people in employment have not contributed anything like as much tax and Ni as a pensioner and it is only right those of us in employment do as today's pensioners did which is make those contributions.
In any case why anyone begrudges people who have worked all their lives the extra tax relief they were getting above the working population is beyond me. It amounts to a 20% of the difference between the two allowances which is a grand total of £479 next year for new pensioners.
The fact anyone thinks it unfair or irrational is yet another triumph of selfish Tory propaganda.
But they didn't. They are definitely saving money by altering the way the tax allowances work for pensioners and it is not the freezing of the allowances that is the big issue but the abolition of them for new pensioners before the personal allowance reaches £10K. To save £3.3bn and hand back 5p in the pound to millionaires at the same time deserves all the flak it is getting.'"
Anyone who's income is little more than £10,500 is very likely to be in dire straits, whether they're a pensioner or not.
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| Quote ="Staffs FC"The company I work for closed an entire manufacturing facility on the site where I work around the turn of the century resulting in hundreds of voluntary/regular redundancies and loads of (lucrative) early retirements. They are currently re investing around 35 million pounds in the facility that remained. At our plant in Scotland the workforce was trimmed by several hundred between around 2000 to 2007. They are currently investing 55 million over 5 years in new infrastructure which will create jobs and critically safeguard those already there.
Without the trimming of staff and subsequent increase in competitiveness it is likely that the company would have completely ceased operations in the UK. Whilst difficult for some (not all) of those involved in the original cut backs it is a fact of life that business must remain competitive in order to survive. This is life in the private sector. It will be the private sector creating wealth, and jobs, that leads the country out of recession so any news of this type, regardless of what may or may not have happened before, is good for the country. Some people need to look at things from an apolitical perspective on here just once in a while.'"
Thats the natural order of things particularly with huge manufacturing plants owned by international company's who often move production around the world to suit different political and economic pressures - thats a given.
What is galling is the way in which a spurious number of "newly" created vacancies are trumpeted in the press literally minutes after a budget has been announced and pinned entirely on the fact that said budget has now created the conditions that such international company's can work with - its sheer bollax and I am insulted that both the government and GSK can think that anyone would think otherwise - I don't for one minute think that the CEO of GSK sat with his little radio under the desk in some far-flung corner of the empire listening to the budget on Wednesday and then immediately reached for the phone and ordered three new plants for the UK on the strength of what he heard.
...and conveniently forgot to add that he'd slashed the UK workforce in a pretty vicious manner just a matter of a few short years ago anyway.
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| Quote ="cod'ead"[url=http://www.thisishullandeastriding.co.uk/Job-fears-1-000-caravan-workers-East-Yorkshire/story-15598795-detail/story.htmlDefinitely a budget for growth[/url'"
Spot on their mate. Weve got a van on Far Grange Skipsea and they are already struggling to sell new vans. Apparently a £30,000 van will now cost £36,000. Its like a double wammy from this shower as they know peaple cant afford the holidays abroad and just wanting a caravan holiday., and wont be able to afford the rental of one.
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| Interesting graphic from the OECD on rates of corporation tax:
Gideon wants us to rush to the bottom, he still seems enamoured with the Irish Tiger model. Has someone told him yet that they've just gone back into recession?
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| Quote ="McLaren_Field"Thats the natural order of things particularly with huge manufacturing plants owned by international company's who often move production around the world to suit different political and economic pressures - thats a given.
What is galling is the way in which a spurious number of "newly" created vacancies are trumpeted in the press literally minutes after a budget has been announced and pinned entirely on the fact that said budget has now created the conditions that such international company's can work with - its sheer bollax and I am insulted that both the government and GSK can think that anyone would think otherwise - I don't for one minute think that the CEO of GSK sat with his little radio under the desk in some far-flung corner of the empire listening to the budget on Wednesday and then immediately reached for the phone and ordered three new plants for the UK on the strength of what he heard.
...and conveniently forgot to add that he'd slashed the UK workforce in a pretty vicious manner just a matter of a few short years ago anyway.'"
Fair points.
Glad to see Nissan and Land Rover announcing similar investments in weeks leading up to the budget. I'm sure everyone would agree that these investments are more than welcome. GSK is one company - there are others prepared to invest and not even just after the budget. The company I work for couldn't give a rat's about budget timing I can assure you - nor were their investments even reported except at a local level.
Once again, purely apolitically, I hope there are many more companies just like these. Confidence will take time to improve to allow cash to be re invested. If it doesn't happen then the country has more to be concerned about than anyone making political points on here.
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