Compare the OP's post with this overview from respected economist, Mariana Mazzucato

[url=http://marianamazzucato.com/2015/07/13/greece-and-the-eu-a-macro-and-micro-mess-up/Greece and the EU, a macro and micro mess-up[/url

Mazzucato is always a good read. Unfortunately, economists like him are rarely involved in formulating economic policy. A more 'neo-classical' or 'distorted Keynesian' approach is favoured.

I agree, it would certainly cause a stir but, we all know what happens when those pesky South Americans try and reclaim their economic freedom...

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33521235 Of course, you'd expect people to be going to prison, right? Don't be ridiculous.

www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33521235 Of course, you'd expect people to be going to prison, right? Don't be ridiculous.

A slap on the wrist and as you were.

There are many respected economist many of whom have differing views. However in this case Mazzucato's overview does not go against the points I made.

I am not taking sides in this as I see the EU being at greater fault while Greece is far from blameless.

EU Failures
1. The EU should never have launched the single currency without fiscal and monetary union for those countries that wanted to join.
2. Had the EU conducted a proper audit it would never have let Greece into the flawed Euro in the first place
3. The EU compounded this error (2) by bailing out Greece instead of assisting it to leave the single currency 5 years ago.
4. The EU then made a second bail out effectively throwing good tax payers money after bad.
5. The EU did not ensure that the necessary reforms that Greece signed up to were in fact carried out so leaving the Greek people with the pain of austerity but with no hope of freeing up the economy and boosting tax revenues.
6. As economies across Europe collapsed, the European Central Bank acted in the interest of rich northern countries like Germany and against the interest of poorer southern countries like Greece, and the Greek people paid the cost.
6. European Central Bank's monetary policy works for the rich norther European countries who are not too concerned that it could be causing a depression in Greece.
7. The EU must realise that Greece can never repay the debit under the current conditions.

Greek failures
1. Greece has been poorly served for decades by a succession of irresponsible governments who to win support have created public sector jobs with unrealistic pay and conditions with way over generous pensions.
2. The financial crisis revealed that the Greek government had been, for years, borrowing more than it reported publicly Greece chose to evade the rules and borrow money under the radar to enable more spending.
3. Tax evasion amounted to half of the 2008 deficit and a third of the 2009 deficit (12.7% of GDP)
True income of the average Greek person is 92% higher than declared to the taxman. (2012 study)
4. A failure to live on its promises has produced a breakdown in trust with its EU partners. Only 5 of the 12 planned IMF reviews under the current programne were completed, and only one has been completed since mid-2013, because of a failure to complete reforms.
5. The Syriza government was elected on a promise it had no chance of keeping.

So this has been a problem brewing up for years on both sides and the economic crash brought out all the fault lines in the EU and the single currency and also in black economy countries like Greece.

Very interesting piece that shows EEC for what it is - a vehicle for German economic, fiscal and political power.

But as ever Germany's thirst for power will result in its eventual downfall. Either it forces fiscal and economic harmonisation in the EZ or it sows the seeds for its own slow destruction. Rightly so too.

Elderly left-winger denounces capitalism...big deal.

If the people in Latin America wish to reverse the socio-economic progress that they have made in the last 2 decades by listening to this blasphemous individual, who thinks that he rather than God can decide what is sinful or not, that is up to them. What the likes of left-wingers such as Pope Francis or Len Mccluskey say is of no relevance to us in the West and has no bearing on what is objectively true.

Why is it everybody blames the financial crisis on banks and governments? It is people who chose to borrow money from the banks that they could not afford to pay back. It is people who voted for governments in the likes of Greece who promised to borrow money to fund the public sector. At the end of the day all that the banks and the governments of Greece, Ireland, Spain, Italy, France, UK etc did was give people what they wanted.

The financial crisis was caused by the greed and irresponsibility of ordinary people. Every single person who defaulted on their mortgage or couldn't pay off their credit card bills or didnt pay off their overdrafts or voted for political parties that promised to spend billions on the public sector through borrowing money should accept responsibility rather than trying to blame others. They should also apologise to the young for it is the young who have suffered the most from the crisis and who will be paying off the debts of their parents and grandparents for the rest of their lives.

I am not sure you can say that about Greece et al David Titan. This article from tonight's Standard sums up my take on it perfectly. This is a problem made in Germany and will need to end in Germany: www.standard.co.uk/business/mark ... 87730.html

I am not sure you can say that about Greece et al David Titan. This article from tonight's Standard sums up my take on it perfectly. This is a problem made in Germany and will need to end in Germany: www.standard.co.uk/business/mark ... 87730.html

Banks went bust because they didnt have sufficient reserves to cope when their regular source of liquidity dried up. Northern Rock didnt go bust because of mortgage default it went bust because it couldnt borrow in the market to pay back the huge loans it already had Nobody forced NR to lend this money it was pure greed and a flawed operational method that caused their demise

Their liquidity dried up because of so called sub-prime defaults in the USA and the risk of it on their loan book.

Quite right, their 125% mortgage model didn't stand up to scrutiny in the final episode, to put it simply for the likes of Titan, they were left without a chair to sit down on when the music stopped.

So as he saI'd, the banks lent recklessly to give the punters what they wanted - money that was unlikely to be repaid and unlikely to be supported by security.

So as he saI'd, the banks lent recklessly to give the punters what they wanted - money that was unlikely to be repaid and unlikely to be supported by security.

It is worth remembering that Northern Rock went bust in the year before the world economic crash.

Well you make a fair point that Joe public should take some responsibility for the reasons you outlined however banks, civil service watchdogs and governments are equally guilty. In the case of Greece Demis public didn't like paying his taxes either.

Northern Rock were lending recklessly but in doing so encouraging borrowers to borrow recklessly. On the day the crap hit the fan with them I recall vividly people phoning into a radio station I was listening to on a long drive, stating how they had been attracted by NR adverts for 100% mortgages but once sat in front of the branch "advisor" had been tempted by stories of how their proposed property would increase by 7 or 8% per annum and so borrowing 110% was not reckless but financially advisable, after all in two years time you'd have equity in the house !

Some callers spoke openly of adding ten grand to what they really needed to pay for furniture, carpets etc, one caller went out and bought a new car on the excess mortgage cash - they were only just starting to realise that they had bought a carpet and a sideboard on 25 years finance, and they'd sold the car last year but would be paying for it for the next 22 years.

You cannot blame individuals for such poor financial decisions as the majority of adults don't even run a household budget let alone deal in financial markets or even stop to think when signing up to a mortgage - you can however blame the lenders who are the self proclaimed experts (or so they thought) for actively luring in people into the honey pot trap of free money.

The reason that we have controls on financial organisations is to save ourselves from their greed because without it they'd sign up all sorts of gullible people without a second thought for their welfare just so long as the "advisor" (who is nothing of the sort) gets his/her bonus this month.

No one was so gullible as to think they were getting the money for free. They just think they "deserved" a flashier lifestyle. To suggest they needed protecting from themselves (except for some disabled people) is frankly socialist nonsense.

NR had become (in my opinion) an unethical selling machine long before they crashed. I moved a mortgage away from them (at cost to myself) because that was my opinion and they disgusted me. I find it hard to believe others hadn't formed such a view.

Back to the question of austerity, Aaronovitch I today's Times makes a good argument that the only people who can't see that Europe's anti-austerity movement has failed to gain popular support are the British Labour party who seem intent on self-destruction.

Some years ago a small rural town in Spain twinned with a similar town in Greece.

The mayor of the Greek town visited the Spanish town. When he saw the palatial mansion belonging
to the Spanish mayor, he wondered aloud how on earth he could afford such a house.

The Spaniard replied: ‘You see that bridge over there? The EU gave us a grant to construct a two-lane bridge, but by building a single lane bridge with traffic lights at either end, I could build this place.’

The following year the Spaniard visited the Greek town. He was simply amazed at the Greek mayor's house: gold taps, marble floors, diamond doorknobs, it was marvellous.

When he asked how he’d raised the money to build this incredible house, the Greek mayor said: ‘You see that bridge over there?’

The Spaniard replied: ‘What bridge.’

No-one suggested that they were getting it for free, but by over selling their mortgage products in an orgy of greed they failed to provide any sort of test for applicants being only interested in lending larger amounts than needed secured against assets that they seemed convinced would never devalue, that was their failing, not the borrowers failing, if someone promises you that you can afford to borrow more than you thought you'd ever be approved for then many will go for it and trying to pretend that the whole of the UK population are chartered accountants and will apply their own stress tests is frankly ridiculous, they won't and they didn't and were led by the nose by the greed of the sales staff.

NR were not always like that, I took out my first mortgage with them in 1982 when I lived in Newcastle and they left me with the impression that they were doing me a huge favour in lending me £9400 to buy a one bedroom flat, I virtually had to crawl on hands and knees and beg for the mortgage even though I was in a decent salaried job, I left the office after filling in forms for nearly an hour so that they even knew which day of the week I changed my underpants, the Gestapo would have probably required fewer details than NR did - that all changed when the bankers and their pals in government decided to trust them enough to release the reins and almost let them self govern, NR became a bank and the selling vultures took up roost.