I would have thought the issue is a very simple one namely the non-integration of many immigrants, children and grandchildren of immigrants into our society. Unless something changes, and fast, the future will not be nice.

Isn't Christ considered to be a prophet by Muslims? Just not on the same level as Mohammed?

Most religious conflicts seem to be more cultural rather than anything really to do with the religion.

I think that's a really good point. There are a lot of cultural and tribal factors besides the religious aspect

Which is why "multi-culturalism" was a misguided mantra. Without integration, we will get bloodshed. As Simon Jenkins put it in article this evening, Gove's obsession with faith schools (but Gove doesn't seem sure about Muslim ones!) creates divisions and risks building a Northern Ireland-type situation here.

Out of interest, Mr. Dally, how many people that you would regard to be other to you and your culture do you know well?

By well, I mean the names of their children, if they have any, you perhaps have shared food with them, maybe discussed the arts?

It think it does, many orders more. Branch Davidians were a tiny sect, surely you are not trying to compare compulsory national religions with minority closed sects? That's just not valid.

I don't need to start listing other countries where any religion other than Islam is inherently in conflict. That would be pretty much all of them, from Iran/Iraq through Saudi etc. It isn't helpful to pretend that this conflict, which is irreconcileable, doesn't exist.


Seriously?

To borrow Sandra's idea, I would be curious to know of your first hand experience of Muslim countries?

I would never suggest that Muslim countries are perfect, but my experience of Jordan, Kuwait and Abu Dhabi was certainly different from that regularly portrayed in the British (and American) media.

I'm sorry you missed the point of my comparison earlier.

Not entirely sure what the first sentence means. But I do know non-native Brits well and in the terms you state (although why would I talk about the arts?. Indeed, given how few people, other than family, I would claim to know well I would guess we're talking quite a high percentage of those!

I don't see how that would be relevant. I know a lot about conditions on the Moon, or Mars, and could look up and find out a million times more, but have never been. Are you casting doubt on what the Pakistani Christians say about their situation in the link I posted? Would I have to have been a Christian living in Pakistan before I can accept that what they say is accurate? Do you have grounds to dispute what they say?

Are not the global experiences of entire sectors of a population of more relevance to this discussion than the limited and isolate experiences of one person, whether tourist or otherwise, which is not much more than anecdotal?


I'm not aware of what picture you think is "regularly portrayed" as you don't say, nor how this differs from your experience. I am sure that the experience of Western tourists and workers is in many cases OK and equally that it is not representative of what conditions apply to the native population, all the more so away from the main business and tourism areas.

Sorry you find personal experience to be so irrelevant.

and you have evidence of this....?

Interesting article today: www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... equal.html

Interesting article today: www.telegraph.co.uk/education/ed ... equal.html

That's a laugh. If you ever state what this personal experience actually is, then an opinion on its relevance could be formed. In what way does your unexplained personal experience make the self-explained situation of Pakistani Christians any better?

I have lived and worked in the Middle East. You, apparently, get your information from the internet. I have experience and you have a computer.

You must have been busy.


For goodness sake. If you truly are the oracle of all Middle Eastern knowledge, yea verily will I worship at your sacred feet, bathed in the glow of your infinite wisdom and knowledge of all things Middle Eastern cos you've been there for a bit, unworthy though I clearly am, if instead of pointless, pompous self-aggrandisement you would just address the fsckin question?

When you say "lived" were you living in and amongst the indigenous population, socialising, shopping, etc etc or were you like a couple of friends of mine "living" in a company compound with all requirements provided ?

I freely admit that my views on "living" in the middle east are based on those who pioneered "living" in the middle east in the 1970s when they were drilling for oil though, it may be different now that people don't have to get their hands dirty anymore and the locals have acquired more status.

Jerry, for the most part I was living on the border of the Indian quarter in Abu Dhabi, near the old Gold Souk. I suspect things have changed a bit over the years. I had time to chat with a lot of construction workers from the sub continent. They certainly don't lead a luxurious life but they make a lot more than they can at home. I also spent free time in the Souk with the locals, work time with various security and police officers, officials and politicians. I was training their officers and officials in investigation, interview/interrogation techniques, threats from organised crime and so on. They were, in my experience, friendly and open minded, but I certainly hadn't realised how deep their religion runs through their lives. As I try to explain the rather testy Aardvark, it seemed to me very different to the stereotypical portrayal of both Arabs and Muslims our media presents us with.

Calm down dear.
Bit touchy aren't we? Perhaps you should get out from behind your keyboard a bit and do some real stuff?

Very touched by your searching of my posts, you must have plenty of time on your hands.

The phraseology about my Middle Eastern knowledge is all yours, not mine. I've just said that I've actually been there, worked, lived and found the reality of being in an Islamic country rather different to the way it's portrayed over here.

Not that controversial to get so wound up about, surely.

Have a word with yerself, will you? Rather than being "wound up", I was simply being blunt, not that it got through. You have said nothing at all, and won't explain what it is you mean. All you seem to think you're good at is being patronising. Which you certainly try hard at. Trouble is, it doesn't work, although it doesn't exactly show you in a good light. But you can't patronise me, and you haven't addressed my question.

What's life in the Middle East got to do with people having "British values" when living in Britain?

TBF the OP (i.e. you) claimed:-

Got to admit, you're on the verge of adding a something useful but having followed this thread I'm still not sure what points you're trying to make.

You ask "How much do you actually know about Islam to enable you to say that there is an inherent conflict between Christian and Muslim views of the world?", but don't give us your view which, given that you've lived there, could be of interest. Others, in the meantime, have debated and supported their views.

As for "stereotypical portrayal of both Arabs and Muslims our media presents us with" - I'm also not sure what portrayal you mean and you again don't elaborate? It doesn't make for good discussion to make bold but essentially dead-end statements.

FWIW, I see a Middle East full of religious and civil unrest and in some cases all-out war. I also see filthy rich countries and extreme poverty. In my humble opinion, however, the majority of people are probably decent folk fed up with all that, avoiding it as best they can and just getting on with their lives. As for Islam, I believe some branches are indeed inherently in conflict with Christianity, and Western nations, simply because many of the more extreme branches preach hatred of all non-Muslims and intolerance of females and homesexuals, and are intent on implementing Sharia wherever they live. Some believe violence is the way to enforce their beliefs. Note: some, certainly not all.

And to be fair you've avoided FA's question throughout.

So, your point is not all countries in the world are the same. Thanks.

My pleasure. Glad to be of assistance.