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| Quote ="Dally"I don't think he does. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently, now alot of people think gay marriage is acceptable. If you start to erode the taboos that hold society together then you end up with all sorts of degradation that ultimately causes society to break down. Societies need discipline and rules to function properly and sustain themselves. Hedonism leads to decline. Look at the succesful soceties - China, Japan, USA, Germany, UK of the past - all built on discipline / morality.'"
Lets just pause for a moment and consider your paragraph (above), I have a couple of questions for you ...
1. Is the viewpoint offered in the paragraph your own personal point of view or are you just playing devils advocate ?
2. Are you seriously suggesting that homosexuality is degrading, a taboo, hedonistic, immoral, and should still be illegal ?
We need to know the answers to those two questions, particularly the first, before discussing the issues. |
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| Quote ="Dally"I don't think he does. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently, now alot of people think gay marriage is acceptable. If you start to erode the taboos that hold society together then you end up with all sorts of degradation that ultimately causes society to break down. Societies need discipline and rules to function properly and sustain themselves. Hedonism leads to decline. Look at the succesful soceties - China, Japan, USA, Germany, UK of the past - all built on discipline / morality.'"
..................and hetrosexuals guarantee this do they. Don't you think that certain 'taboos' as you call them need to be put in the bin of history along with such practices as drowning women to check if they are witches. A lot of problems we have in this country are because of the repression we have seen over the centuries, such as gays being force into 'normal' lifestyles through fear of persecution. I doubt the fabric of our society can crash any lower at this moment in time, but recognising two peoples right to equal status would not be a catalyst even if it could get lower.
If two gay men or two lesbians feel the need to marry, why the hell should they be prevented, all this 'man & women' only bollox is something we should have left in the 19th century, not something we should drag into the 21st with us.
Your probably worried about the value of your house dropping should any of the 'deviants' move in next door  |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Lets just pause for a moment and consider your paragraph (above), I have a couple of questions for you ...
1. Is the viewpoint offered in the paragraph your own personal point of view or are you just playing devils advocate ?
2. Are you seriously suggesting that homosexuality is degrading, a taboo, hedonistic, immoral, and should still be illegal ?
We need to know the answers to those two questions, particularly the first, before discussing the issues.'"
He simply must be playing devil's advocate. Surely not even Dally is deeply unpleasant and/or foolish enough to actually believe that guff. |
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Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.
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| Quote ="Mintball"Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.'"
The only statement that buffoon made was "I am mentally ill". |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"The only statement that buffoon made was "I am mentally ill".'"
I know what you mean, but I'm loathe to agree entirely – if only that it suggests that mental illness makes you a "buffoon".
And now being lauded by Le Pen. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.'"
Personally, I think more opponents of equal rights should take this course of action. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"My understanding is that there are legal/pensions/tax differences anyway – and the civil partnership was not and is not marriage, which is a particular social construct.
Get hitched in a registry office and you're still married.. The original legislation was to enable LGBT couple to formalise their relationships, but without the big emotional row we're getting now because marriage is something different again.
The reality is that it means different things for different people; it has never meant the same throughout all human history or been carried out in the same way. but for many people it appears to be considered the apotheosis of a public statement of commitment.
Not all LGBT people will want to 'upgrade' their civil partnership into a marriage. They will have a choice (which they do not currently have). So the choice should also be extended to straight couple who don't want to marry but wish for some legal formality etc.'"
I still find the differences between entering into a civil partnership and getting married in a registry office moot if they both incur the same legal standing.
I would imagine to do either it has to be legal for you to do so (e.g. not already married or in another civil partnership), there will be some formality to be gone through with a suitable public servant, no doubt the registrar, in both cases and the act will have to be witnessed.
Anyone who sees a difference between a minimal registry office wedding and a civil partnership when after the event both leave the couple in exactly the same legal position is far too hung up on semantics IMO. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"Well hopefully he's not so upset by all this gay marriage stuff that he's likely to pop into a crowded church and shoot himself dead as a statement.'"
I honestly find it difficult to believe that someone can get so exercised by such a trivial issue. |
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Quote ="Dally".. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently,'"
It was? Under what law?
Quote ="Dally".. Hedonism leads to decline. '"
WTF has "hedonism" got to do with homosexuality?
Actually i think I know, you are obsessed with the physical act of men inserting their sexual organs into another man's rectum. That, to you, IS homosexuality, that is what you think is the be all and end all, and you disapprove. this is why you mistakenly belive that homosexuality was illegal. It wasn't. Certain sexual acts between males were illegal, NOt the state of being homosexual. You would do well to try to understand that. Homosexuality is as much about women as men, and is not in either case defined by pleasures of sexual intercourse, any more than heterosexual love is.
To put it another way, if homosexuality=hedonism, what is your argument why equally heterosexuality doesn not = hedonism? What is the difference in this respect?
Quote ="Dally".. Look at the succesful soceties '"
Oooh, yes, let's. (Why didn't you mention Greece, I wonder?)
Quote ="Dally".. China, '"
www.policymic.com/articles/36313 ... ted-states
Have you heard of the Emperor Wu?
Quote ="Dally".. Japan'"
japanhistory-homo.blogspot.co.uk/
Quote The people of the West are not aware that there once existed in Japan a cultural tradition of homosexuality comparable to that of ancient Greece. During a period of time in which the traditional civilization of Japan reached its perfection, the homosexual love was considered a passion more noble and more gracious than heterosexuality. '"
I'd say that it was the influx of christian missionaries which turned that around in Japan (as the article agrees) but that was only [iafter[/i the foundation of one of the most successful societies;
Quote ="Dally".. USA '"
You're joking, right?
Quote ="Dally"..Germany, '"
This is perhaps your most shocking example. You must, presumably, be aware that [url=http://www.qrd.org/qrd/culture/1995/gay.culture.flourished.prenazi.germany-10.95gay culture flourished in pre-Nazi Germany[/url
I would like to believe that you are not implying the attempted eradication of homosexuals (amongst others) by the Nazis is an example of a "successful society"?
I suggest some of [url=http://main.uab.edu/Sites/students/life/safe-zone/33566/these people[/url contributed to successful societies, including such deviants as da Vinci, Hans Christian Andersen, Michelangelo, Socrates, Peter the Great, Oscar Wilde, Keynes, Proust, Plato, Cole Porter, WH Auden to name but a smattering. Or are they all the sort of deviants to whom you'd pin pink triangles? |
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Quote ="Dally".. Homosexuality was illegal until quite recently,'"
It was? Under what law?
Quote ="Dally".. Hedonism leads to decline. '"
WTF has "hedonism" got to do with homosexuality?
Actually i think I know, you are obsessed with the physical act of men inserting their sexual organs into another man's rectum. That, to you, IS homosexuality, that is what you think is the be all and end all, and you disapprove. this is why you mistakenly belive that homosexuality was illegal. It wasn't. Certain sexual acts between males were illegal, NOt the state of being homosexual. You would do well to try to understand that. Homosexuality is as much about women as men, and is not in either case defined by pleasures of sexual intercourse, any more than heterosexual love is.
To put it another way, if homosexuality=hedonism, what is your argument why equally heterosexuality doesn not = hedonism? What is the difference in this respect?
Quote ="Dally".. Look at the succesful soceties '"
Oooh, yes, let's. (Why didn't you mention Greece, I wonder?)
Quote ="Dally".. China, '"
www.policymic.com/articles/36313 ... ted-states
Have you heard of the Emperor Wu?
Quote ="Dally".. Japan'"
japanhistory-homo.blogspot.co.uk/
Quote The people of the West are not aware that there once existed in Japan a cultural tradition of homosexuality comparable to that of ancient Greece. During a period of time in which the traditional civilization of Japan reached its perfection, the homosexual love was considered a passion more noble and more gracious than heterosexuality. '"
I'd say that it was the influx of christian missionaries which turned that around in Japan (as the article agrees) but that was only [iafter[/i the foundation of one of the most successful societies;
Quote ="Dally".. USA '"
You're joking, right?
Quote ="Dally"..Germany, '"
This is perhaps your most shocking example. You must, presumably, be aware that [url=http://www.qrd.org/qrd/culture/1995/gay.culture.flourished.prenazi.germany-10.95gay culture flourished in pre-Nazi Germany[/url
I would like to believe that you are not implying the attempted eradication of homosexuals (amongst others) by the Nazis is an example of a "successful society"?
I suggest some of [url=http://main.uab.edu/Sites/students/life/safe-zone/33566/these people[/url contributed to successful societies, including such deviants as da Vinci, Hans Christian Andersen, Michelangelo, Socrates, Peter the Great, Oscar Wilde, Keynes, Proust, Plato, Cole Porter, WH Auden to name but a smattering. Or are they all the sort of deviants to whom you'd pin pink triangles? | |
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"This is perhaps your most shocking example. You must, presumably, be aware that gay culture flourished in pre-Nazi Germany
I would like to believe that you are not implying the attempted eradication of homosexuals (amongst others) by the Nazis is an example of a "successful society"? "
Isn't the whole point that the Nazis came to power on the back of economic strife and moral and national decline? Wasn't there a backlash against homosexuals? Now, we have similar circumstances in the UK and the Western world generally at present. If I were a practicisng homosexual I would be keeping my head down as it were rather than campaigning vigourously for further rights.
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| Quote ="Dally""This is perhaps your most shocking example. You must, presumably, be aware that gay culture flourished in pre-Nazi Germany
I would like to believe that you are not implying the attempted eradication of homosexuals (amongst others) by the Nazis is an example of a "successful society"? "
Isn't the whole point that the Nazis came to power on the back of economic strife and moral and national decline? Wasn't there a backlash against homosexuals? Now, we have similar circumstances in the UK and the Western world generally at present. If I were a practicing homosexual I would be keeping my head down as it were rather than campaigning vigorously for further rights.'"
This is quite bizarre. Where is there any evidence homsexuals are the likely target for any backlash given the present circumstances in the UK and the Western world? The circumstances we face are economic in nature not cultural and I don't see any great moral crusade one way or the other.
Homsexuals aren't remotely on the radar. The privileged few, bankers and large tax avoiding corporations are. If you want to look at a particular social group who may be caught up in any popular backlash to the problems we face, it's immigrants. |
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| Quote ="Dally"...
Isn't the whole point that the Nazis came to power on the back of economic strife and moral and national decline? '"
As there is absolutely no link whatsoever between either of those things and sexual orientation, clearly not. Or are you suggesting that any economic strife was the result of homosexuality?
Quote ="Dally"...Wasn't there a backlash against homosexuals? '"
There was a Nazi party against homosexuals, who were not only scapegoated along with Jews, gypsies etc., but were also accused of being non-Aryan. Do you seriously contend this counts as a "backlash"?
Quote ="Dally"...Now, we have similar circumstances in the UK and the Western world generally at present.'"
What?? Similar, as in pre-WWII Germany??? Are you serious????
Quote ="Dally"... If I were a practicisng homosexual I would be keeping my head down as it were rather than campaigning vigourously for further rights.'"
Why, exactly? Are you darkly hinting that homosexuals will soon be at risk of the deathcamps again? Or what? You've lost me. "Head down"? Why would you be?  |
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If I was the sort of person who would seek to deny rights to others with no justification for doing so other than my own petty prejudices, [iI'd[/i be keeping [imy[/i head down.
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| Quote ="DaveO"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
'"
I'm intrigued how you have my words of wisdom attributed to Dally!
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| Quote ="Dally"So you appear know what I think now!?'"
I doubt that anyone in this forum has posted quite as much about this topic as you have … and your views have become very obvious.
Do you deny what I said? |
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"I doubt that anyone in this forum has posted quite as much about this topic as you have … and your views have become very obvious.
Do you deny what I said?'"
Well?
Do you ? |
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I have no dramas with gay people wanting the same rights as hetrosexual people.
Civil partnerships = good thing.
What I don't understand is why people are now trying to change the definition of marriage.
Correct me if I am wrong, but marriage is an age-old religious institution, which has (in Western society) meant one man and one woman.
If you have sausages and mash potato you can call it bangers and mash. If you replace the sausages with fish fingers you no longer have bangers and mash. You have fish fingers and mash.
Why do people want to change the definition of marriage? What (if any) extra rights are afforded in a marriage over a civil partnership?
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| Quote ="The Video Ref"
Correct me if I am wrong, but marriage is an age-old religious institution, which has (in Western society) meant one man and one woman.
'"
You are wrong. Religion doesn't hold the rights to the word or the concept of marriage, and even a cursory reading of the Bible would show the whole 'one man one woman' thing to be nonsense. |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"You are wrong. Religion doesn't hold the rights to the word or the concept of marriage, and even a cursory reading of the Bible would show the whole 'one man one woman' thing to be nonsense.'"
Untrue. Jesus was big on faithfulness. See his chat with the woman at the well. He also spoke of the church being the bride, so the concept of marriage was there from the outset.
[url=http://www2.hu-berlin.de/sexology/ATLAS_EN/html/history_of_marriage_in_western.htmlHere is a very useful summary of the history of marriage.[/url |
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"Untrue. Jesus was big on faithfulness. See his chat with the woman at the well. He also spoke of the church being the bride, so the concept of marriage was there from the outset.'"
Ignoring the Old Testament, are we? Regardless of Jesus' views on marriage, there are plenty of examples in the Bible where marriage takes place other than between one man and one woman.
The Bible aside, modern man has been around for a couple of hundred thousand years. There were plenty of marriages before Yahweh was even invented, yet Christians seem to think they own the word. |
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"Untrue. Jesus was big on faithfulness. See his chat with the woman at the well. He also spoke of the church being the bride, so the concept of marriage was there from the outset.'"
Mankind and variations of marriage existed long before 0 AD, so Christianity has no patent on it and has no right to define it for everyone else.
Also, faithfulness is not gender-specific. |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"Ignoring the Old Testament, are we? Regardless of Jesus' views on marriage, there are plenty of examples in the Bible where marriage takes place other than between one man and one woman. '"
The Old Testament refers to the time before Jesus. Without Jesus there is no Christianity. Jesus initiated a change in emphasis where relationships were concerned and not just romantic relationships. However, it has been some while since Jews were involved in polygamy either.
Quote The Bible aside, modern man has been around for a couple of hundred thousand years. There were plenty of marriages before Yahweh was even invented, yet Christians seem to think they own the word.'"
Christians do own the word, as it has been understood for centuries in this country, because it was the Christian church which devised the modern marriage construct. I don't see what the big problem is with that. It is just part of this country's heritage. |
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"The Old Testament refers to the time before Jesus. Without Jesus there is no Christianity. Jesus initiated a change in emphasis where relationships were concerned and not just romantic relationships. However, it has been some while since Jews were involved in polygamy either.'"
Oh, you see, I was under the impression that The Bible was supposed to be the 'word of God'. Are you telling me that it's not? Or was God wrong to condone the marriages that didn't consist of one man and one woman? This is a typical attitude where Christians are concerned - take the bits of The Bible that suit your agenda and ignore the rest.
Quote ="SaintsFan"Christians do own the word, as it has been understood for centuries in this country, because it was the Christian church which devised the modern marriage construct. I don't see what the big problem is with that. It is just part of this country's heritage.'"
Christians most assuredly do not own the word. Marriage was around long before the invention of the Christian religion, and is a feature of many other religions besides Christianity. Hijacking a word/concept and attempting to define it for everyone does not give you ownership of that word/concept. |
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| Either way, marriage has been around for a long time and was largely accepted to mean the union of a man and a woman,
Quote ="Rock God X" Hijacking a word/concept and attempting to define it for everyone.'"
Seems to be exactly what is happening at the moment. People are attempting to redefine marriage. |
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