OK, you've been given multiple chances to clarify and have elected not to do so, preferring instead to suggest you have been misunderstood.
I guess we'll just have to add xenophobia to your list of exhibited bigotries.

There's nothing to explain until you've clarified why you have chosen to misrepresent or lie about what I wrote.

Quoting you was a misrepresentation or a lie?

I think you are clutching at straws regarding dismissing quotes from the BBC as you do.

I am also rather stunned that the Germophope accusation be directed at me. It's quite ridiculous if you know anything about my politics and views on Europe which I am sure you do given my posting history on here.

Finally, given the way this has developed over recent days and as reported on the BBC news only today it is blindingly obvious the German goverment is the prime mover behind a deposit raid. They may have other governments who agree with them but if we get a depsotit raid or not hangs on the German governments agreement one way or the other. It's clear to me it they who are insisting upon it and I think that is borne out by the way it is being reported.

Unfortunately, the Beeb is not what it was in terms of news reporting: just to give two examples, it has done almost zilch on the privatisation of the NHS, and has been unquestioning of the lies of IDS.

It entirely suits the government to have an idea conveyed that Germany is at the heart of this and, by implication, so much more powerful than any of the other governments that were involved that it could 'bully' (to use Dally's word) the rest.

I doubt this government is particularly Germanophobic itself. We know that it is Europhobic in terms of some regulation - almost certainly rights for workers - but given Cameron's promise to have a vote on Europe, which is entirely aimed at Eurouphobics (rather even than Eurosceptics) having the old card about a dangerously big, bullying Germany at the heart of the problems is a lovely little theme to be heard - and a distraction from the real issues.

If you want to get any political comment or criticism of NHS reforms you'd need to watch Casualty or Holby City

So here we are yet again with the Eurozone on the brink. The latest Cypriot "under pressure" proposal being taken to Brussels tonight is a 20% Bank raid on 100k plus savings accounts and the introduction of capital controls. The EU led by the Germans are playing hard ball but if this is to be the 'kick the can even further down the road' solution then the message that it will send throughout the troubled euro zone and the world markets beyond is a bad one.

Businesses and investors will think twice about holding money in the other troubled Euro zone countries that includes Italy & Spain and there could be a capital flight from these same countries. What is becoming clear is that if a tiny little country like Cyprus (whose economy is just about a fifth of 1% of the Eurozone) has the capacity to turn a Euro crisis into a catastrophae and is handled so cackhandedly by the EU then how would they cope if they had to mount a rescue of Italy or Spain. Those countries outside the Eurozone should not have to suffer their continued incompetence.

Dally, just to make it clear to us all, could you rephrase the paragraph quoted earlier to make it clear that you are actually NOT claiming that the Germans are a nation of bullies that 'need to be stood up to'?

Thanks.


Oh, and while we're at it, can you also confirm that you aren't Captain Mainwaring. Thanks again.

I can stand up for Dally here, he is by no means Captain Mainwaring, Captain Mainwaring held his bigoted beliefs because he genuinely believed them, in a time when society was so backward as to find them acceptable, Dally is just a troll who chooses an obtuse point of view in order to court controversy.

But be gentle with him, his family seem to endure much hardship (hardship beyond being related to him) and more that their fair share of misfortune, you just have to worry about the poor little lambs.

or maybe you just have to wish he'd makea pact with Kirkstaller....hmmm

There's a big difference, Capt Mainwaring is a fictional character, whereas Dally ... oh, hang on ...

It has certainly taken a turn for the worse but Newsnight when Paxman is on is still worth listening to and Robert Peston isn't exactly some discredited Fleet street hack either.



Suits our government? The comments about Germany being behind the deposit raid scheme emanate from all over the place and all sides of the political spectrum. Looking around the net it appears to be accepted that this is the case. I don't know what the fuss is about re this being Germanophobic. I would think the issues with the latest scheme (particularly it being a template for other bail outs) would be as huge whoever was the economic powerhouse of the Eurozone countries. The fact that [iis[/i Germany, the fact this is case which means German domestic politics has influenced the type of deal done is just the way it is. Critisim of this is not being Germanophobic IMO.

Isn't there something in the AUP about repeated trolling? If not, why not?

Quite.
(My Germanophobia posts were about Dally's xenophobic tourette's-style outbursts)

Moving on, I think what has shocked people is the way that it's going to be a direct take from bank accounts rather than (as I think JohnD alluded) a less obvious bail-out using government (i.e. taxpayer's) cash or Quantitative easing which just devalues the money in circulation, and inflates part of the problem away but both of which still cost people in the end.
At least in Cyprus it's the big stashes that will be hit and that will include a whole lotta ill-gotten roubles (at which aspect, I just have to smile).

Theo Paphitis is well ed-off.
Which is a bonus.

The QE route isn't available to them is it unless they exit the Euro.



If he is, then I won't be shedding any tears for him but I think the problem is still very serious for much less well off people. I think plenty are going to be caught who haven't done a thing wrong and were just diligent savers which apparently was a big part of Cypriot culture unlike say here.

There are also issues about people having transient money seized just because the cut was taken on a certain day. For example someone taking out a loan who had it transferred into the bank on the "wrong" day could see 40% of it vanish. Even worse if the loan only just took them over the 100K barrier they then end up down to around the 60K mark whereas someone on 99,999 isn't affected.

They should have at least given everyone the 100K exemption and should also have some rule that says you have had to have had more then 100K or more in your account for longer than 6 months or something like that.

The fact this will be used a template for other bailouts could create a run on banks in certain other countries and is bonkers IMO because while the justification for this one is the Cypriot banks are full of dodgy cash so those with laundered money on deposit must not be bailed out by Eurozone tax payers or banks, how does that apply to the likes of Spain and Portugal?

Yes, I only mentioned QE as an example of something which is on the face of it less shocking but still picks people's pockets.


Do we know that it will be used as a template?

<double post>

That is what the Dutch finance minister said.

Here is a link about the idea of it being a template:

[urlhttp://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/25/cyprus-bailout-savings-raid-template[/url

That was yesterday but I just looked again and today its all change again...

[urlhttp://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_wsite2_1_27/03/2013_490097[/url

Dijsselbloem seems a bit of an idiot and has effectively been rebuked.

There is also this commentary:

[urlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/debt-crisis-live/9956271/Cyprus-bailout-live.html[/url

Which states the obvious as to the consequences of the deal:

[i If uninsured deposits in smallish banks in peripheral eurozone economies are at risk, you'd be mad to put your money there unless compensated by a very high interest rates. As a consequence, money is going to get sucked out of the peripheral economies into the safer, core economies where the too big to fail rule still holds true.

The flight of capital from the periphery already seen because of fears of a eurozone break up will be further enhanced. No wonder the European Central Bank is so worried, for it is the the ECB which gets called on for funding when eurozone banks are facing deposit flight.

Indeed, the absurdity of the German position on Cyprus, which is that creditor countries should not be expected to support periphery country banking systems, is that the ECB will have to support them instead, or as Machel Alexandrovich of Jefferies International puts it: "In saving €5.8bn in bail-out money, the other euro area countries will likely be on the hook for 4 to 5 times more in contingent Central Bank liabilities". Hey ho.[/i

(I presume he means "4 to 5 times more in contingent Central Bank liabilities" because of capital flight from other peripheral countries banks leaving them requiring support as well as the Cypriot banks).

I am no economist but it seemed blindingly obvious to me when you raid deposits in banks of weaker countries whether the excuse is some hold loads of laundered cash or not you are bound to get people moving their cash elsewhere.

Also according to the telegraph link above deposit controls will apply for 7 days to stop people withdrawing everything they have. Well WTF do they think is going to happen after 7 days????



It also seems to me if there is "flight of capital from the periphery" this just confirms something we already knew which is some countries should have never joined/been allowed to join the Euro in the first place.

And all this because of a German desire not to be seen to be bailing out rich Russians of dubious background. Why on earth could they not see these consequences coming?

For those of you you think that your money is safe in a mainstream bank, I would like to point out that since 2012 the law (EU Bank Resolution Directive) has provided the possibility of depositors taking a hit in return for shares in any failing bank. As I said before, if depositing funds in a mainstream fractional reserve bank (as opposed to a ring-fenced account like you would have had in the Trustee Savings Bank, or with a fully guaranteed account eg the old National Savings accounts) then legally speaking you are a loan creditor of the bank and so like bondholders should expect to take a hit in future (subject to the guarantee scheme - which I guess if ever called upon if, say, RBS went under again would either be reneged upon or prove worthless as £85,000 in such times would probably by worth about a penny in today's terms).

There's an awful lot of Russian money going into Portugal at the moment according to the business contacts I have there, specifically The Algarve and the multi-million euro developments that were all the rage there ten years ago - the willing sellers are from the English and especially the Irish ex-pats, the ones who were multi-millionaires only for as long as the celtic tiger lived and breathed.

The Portuguese do not like the situation at all but are helpless to do anything about it - if they have another rough summer season then expect Portugal to be dragged into the bun fight too.

Lot of Russian money has gone into London too!

I assume the idea is to raid the deposits before the 7 day period expires. After that it's a free for all.


I think they saw the possibility and deliberately ignored it in the hope that it wouldn't happen. Or that they could somehow ride it out.

The whole thing has all the makings of an omnishambles. And the root of the problem, as you point out, was allowing countries into the Euro when they were in no way ready to join. Some of this might have been trickery (Greece) but a lot of it was deliberate policy to try and grow the Eurozone as fast as possible. Rules were bent or downright ignored and the pigeons are coming home to roost.

Watching Newsnight again the prospect of a cash fleeing other currently solvent banks to German banks (say) to the extent they became under threat or do actually go bust thus costing the Eurozone tax payer even more than simply bailing out the Cypriot banks was raised. It was more or less a "So what?" attitude from the Eruozone minister on the program.

He seemed to think that because shareholders and bondholders then large depositors would suffer (in that order) given the Cypriot template seems to now be in place then this meant it was clear banks would be allowed to fail which was in itself a good thing. What he didn't seem to get was peoples fear of losing their money might be the cause of any such bank failures as the Cypriot solution has undermined peoples confidence in all but what they perceive to be the safest banks.

The question of would the Cypriot solution work if a bank as big as RBS failed and what would the consequences be was also not really dealt with.

The Cypriot solution was criticised as being badly handled by one of the guests and a film also highlighted why its a mess in that a cheese farmer/producer had sent a payment for 1.2m Euros to a supplier and neither of them have any idea if 40% of it just vanished. Omnishambles is the right word!

It is looking likely that the latest Euro crisis may lead to having effectively two Euros. The poor southern ones will have currency restrictions imposed and be forced to steal money from savers accounts which in Cyprus could be up to 60%. How long before the "southern Euro" will have a lower exchange value than the "northern euro"? It remains to be seen if these capital controls are even legal?

Next up in the great Euro shambles will be Slovenia where trouble is brewing and Malta and Luxembourg are coming up on the rails. What would finally sink the Euro would be if Spain or Italy were to come back with bigger begging bowls.

I've got a great idea. Why doesn't each Member State have it's own currency?

The Euro experiment has well and truly failed. What a complete and utter shambles. I truly cannot wait for the day when the UK are given the long awaited opportunity to leave. A 'yes' vote will be like all my birthdays rolled into one, and watching the whole vile corrupt institution collapse like a pack of cards will be a joy to behold.