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The Labour party's problem is a fundamental one. It was a party whose roots are in an different era that is failing to adapt to demographic change. The Blair years saw it adapt to the new demographic landscape but it was not Labour as traditional Labour voters knew it. They then lost the trust of their new found middle class friends over Iraq and then the economic crash (however unfair that particular criticism may be). Those two things will take a generation to recover from IMO. Just look how many people in the North still rant about the Thatcher era and blame their ills on her / her party to see how long-term these voter reactions can last.
In gaining its new, short-term friends, Labour has spent two generations distancing itself from the poor in our society who are just now turning away from it.
Labour therefore is at a crossroads and needs to decide who it appeals to. Rather like "our" M&S's clothing emporia it cannot provide an offering of all things to all people as it'll end up satisfying none of them. If it lurches "left" it will not be electable as there are insufficient punters who that will appeal to.
In short, it's hard to see a meaningful future for them any time soon.
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| Quote ="Cibaman"I'm not disputing any of that. But the idea that Corbyn is going to change it is fanciful.'"
Oh I agree but someone has to start somewhere, and it would need to be a leader too, sadly I don't expect it will ever happen as they don't consider that their behavior at times is simply unacceptable in any sort of establishment. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Oh I agree but someone has to start somewhere, and it would need to be a leader too, sadly I don't expect it will ever happen as they don't consider that their behavior at times is simply unacceptable in any sort of establishment.'"
How many leaders did the tories get through after Major and before golden bollox Camoron turned up?
I've a feeling that once the middle classes see the real consequence of Osbornomics, a chimp in an M&S suit could probably stand a good chance of winning a majority |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"How many leaders did the tories get through after Major and before golden bollox Camoron turned up?
I've a feeling that once the middle classes see the real consequence of Osbornomics, a chimp in an M&S suit could probably stand a good chance of winning a majority'"
You're flattering Osborne by tagging his "policies" with a name, I have this vision of him on the phone most evenings to his University professors saying "Could you just run through that first year lecture on sleight of hand distraction techniques with particular regard to fiscal planning again please" |
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| Quote ="Dally"The Labour party's problem is a fundamental one. It was a party whose roots are in an different era that is failing to adapt to demographic change. The Blair years saw it adapt to the new demographic landscape but it was not Labour as traditional Labour voters knew it. They then lost the trust of their new found middle class friends over Iraq and then the economic crash (however unfair that particular criticism may be). Those two things will take a generation to recover from IMO. Just look how many people in the North still rant about the Thatcher era and blame their ills on her / her party to see how long-term these voter reactions can last.
In gaining its new, short-term friends, Labour has spent two generations distancing itself from the poor in our society who are just now turning away from it.
Labour therefore is at a crossroads and needs to decide who it appeals to. Rather like "our" M&S's clothing emporia it cannot provide an offering of all things to all people as it'll end up satisfying none of them. If it lurches "left" it will not be electable as there are insufficient punters who that will appeal to.
In short, it's hard to see a meaningful future for them any time soon.'"
It's pure revisionism to pin the blame for Labour's abandonment of core socialist principles upon Blair because the truth is the party did that NEARLY FIFTY YEARS AGO when Harold Wilson was elected. All Blair did was arrange for a skip to be placed outside of Party HQ so the last scraps of tattered credibility remaining could be hawked before selling out fully.
You can't even consider Labour a socialist party. Even in its heydey (which was before the war) it was only ever a bulwark against [iactual socialism[/i breaking out in Britain. Once WWII ended and the electorate received its payoff for five years of war misery (the NHS) it didn't take long before they were falling back on all their commitments (something these "moral men" claimed only TORIES indulged in). This Labour party has spent more years reneging on its promises than it did MAKING those promises. |
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Part of Labour's problem is that they think everyone who voted UKIP is a 'wasist' and in the process write off their chances of every gaining back these people to vote for them.
Corbyn only appeals to a small proportion of hardcore lefties who live in some sort of delusion that if he says the right things some imaginary switch will be flicked in the UK electorate and everyone will vote for him. It's just not going to happen.
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| Quote ="Ajw71"More totally clueless
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| Quote ="Leaguefan"icon_stupid.gif
'"
I have reported your post (and your previous posts) which are clearly aimed at destroying and disrupting discussion on the forum. |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"
Liz Kendall - intelligent, excellent orator. About the only thing the Wail will find wrong is that she's not married and her partner is a comedian
None of them get me excited but of the lot, I'd go for Kendall'"
You've changed your tune. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"more
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Thats the whole point, there should be no baying mob.
Have you ever sat in a company board room where directors meet to discuss important issues that affect the well being of the company and all of its employees and customers ?
How long do you think your directorship would last if every time anyone else opened their mouths to speak, you tried to shout them down, I'd give you ten minutes before you're stood on the street outside with a box full of photographs from your desk and wondering how you're going to get home without the company car tonight.'"
The thing is PMQ is not reflective of the bulk of parliamentary business, it is an hour of pantomime once a week, serious government decisions are not made on the back of it. It's more like the annual shareholders meeting of a big company where the chairman and CEO spout corporate bollox and beat their chests about how macho they've been/plan to be cutting costs or sticking it to the competition. At those public meetings the execs have to present a macho super confident front for fear the business press and institutional investors present will view them as hesitant or unclear. |
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| Quote ="Kelvin's Ferret"The thing is PMQ is not reflective of the bulk of parliamentary business, it is an hour of pantomime once a week, serious government decisions are not made on the back of it. It's more like the annual shareholders meeting of a big company where the chairman and CEO spout corporate bollox and beat their chests about how macho they've been/plan to be cutting costs or sticking it to the competition. At those public meetings the execs have to present a macho super confident front for fear the business press and institutional investors present will view them as hesitant or unclear.'"
Institutional investors do not attend shareholders meetings. They know its corporate bollox. They have separate briefing sessions with the company.
PMQs is probably a bit more important because its one of the ways that the public form a view on the competence of the PM and Leader of the Opposition. IDS never recovered from his terrible performances at PMQs. But the public form their opinion based on the soundbites shown on the evening news. Not on the intellectual superiority of the arguments. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"You've changed your tune.'"
Have you been licking batteries again?
If you bothered to actually read my original post, you may comprehend that I was offering a view on the then declared candidates (excludes Corbyn). It was not a declaration of whom I would vote for. I am both surprised and delighted that Kendall has not managed to con anyone with her tory-lite policies. Shows her leadership qualities up for what they are. |
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Moderator
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Quote ="Derwent"This document is well worth a read, it's a report authored by 7 Labour candidates who failed to win key marginals at the general election. It draws on their first hand experiences of canvassing and campaigning in those marginals and is quite an honest account of Labour's failings in their campaign. It makes some excellent points such as there are some issues which Labour wouldn't even acknowledge existed never mind have a conversation about.......
www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content/up ... -seats.pdf'"
The problem with this document is its premise. And that is as politicians you react to what you hear on the doorstep, act upon that to win votes and let that shape your thinking.
What seems to have vanished from modern politics is great politicians actually influencing the electorate's opinions.
It doesn't matter what party you look at the way they approach elections is to pander to certain sectors of the electorate. If they shape the debate at all it isn't based on principle but on fear. Things like the SNP will govern Britain if Labour had won. UKIP is a party that in my view panders to racism even it it does its best to avoid the charge.
One of my favourite political quotes is from Winston Churchill who said "The best argument against Democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter".
It seems to me the authors of that document ought to think on that quote for a minute.
If all the political parties do is listen to the people on the doorstep who have just finished watching a re-run of Benefits Street they will all end up the same.
Is there no politician with the guts and the political skill to set an alternative agenda? The skill bit is important by the way. Without it in the modern media driven world you will be doomed to fail. |
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Quote ="Derwent"This document is well worth a read, it's a report authored by 7 Labour candidates who failed to win key marginals at the general election. It draws on their first hand experiences of canvassing and campaigning in those marginals and is quite an honest account of Labour's failings in their campaign. It makes some excellent points such as there are some issues which Labour wouldn't even acknowledge existed never mind have a conversation about.......
www.fabians.org.uk/wp-content/up ... -seats.pdf'"
The problem with this document is its premise. And that is as politicians you react to what you hear on the doorstep, act upon that to win votes and let that shape your thinking.
What seems to have vanished from modern politics is great politicians actually influencing the electorate's opinions.
It doesn't matter what party you look at the way they approach elections is to pander to certain sectors of the electorate. If they shape the debate at all it isn't based on principle but on fear. Things like the SNP will govern Britain if Labour had won. UKIP is a party that in my view panders to racism even it it does its best to avoid the charge.
One of my favourite political quotes is from Winston Churchill who said "The best argument against Democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter".
It seems to me the authors of that document ought to think on that quote for a minute.
If all the political parties do is listen to the people on the doorstep who have just finished watching a re-run of Benefits Street they will all end up the same.
Is there no politician with the guts and the political skill to set an alternative agenda? The skill bit is important by the way. Without it in the modern media driven world you will be doomed to fail. | |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"Have you been licking batteries again?
If you bothered to actually read my original post, you may comprehend that I was offering a view on the then declared candidates (excludes Corbyn). It was not a declaration of whom I would vote for. I am both surprised and delighted that Kendall has not managed to con anyone with her tory-lite policies. Shows her leadership qualities up for what they are.'"
Resort to smelly fish insult once more.
Quote ="cod'ead"Of those mentioned so far, here's my take:
Yvette Cooper - too close to Ed Balls, mention of him would be continuous and keep dragging her back
Chuka Umunna - personable enough, good communicator but he'll be subjected to closet racism in the same way that Miliband suffered closet anti-semitism
Andy Burnham - good orator, cheeky chappy but will always be saddled with "North Staffs killing 1200 people"
Liz Kendall - intelligent, excellent orator. About the only thing the Wail will find wrong is that she's not married and her partner is a comedian
None of them get me excited but of the lot, I'd go for Kendall'"
So before the hard left baffoon took the stage and now looks like winning the first round thanks to the Union "new members" you were prepared to be coned by Kendall with "her tory-lite policies" ? Some U-turn!  |
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| Quote ="Lord Elpers"Resort to smelly fish insult once more.
So before the hard left baffoon took the stage and now looks like winning the first round thanks to the Union "new members" you were prepared to be coned by Kendall with "her tory-lite policies" ? Some U-turn!
'"
FFS, it's difficult enough answering one who suffers from hard of thinking, let alone a double act.
It was AN OPINION of the chances of the declared candidates. A tip if you prefer |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"Have you been licking batteries again?
If you bothered to actually read my original post, you may comprehend that I was offering a view on the then declared candidates (excludes Corbyn). It was not a declaration of whom I would vote for. I am both surprised and delighted that Kendall has not managed to con anyone with her tory-lite policies. Shows her leadership qualities up for what they are.'"
"I'd go for Kendall" - not much ambiguity there.
If you have changed your mind why don't you just say, no big deal. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71""I'd go for Kendall" - not much ambiguity there.
If you have changed your mind why don't you just say, no big deal.'"
Look barmpot, it's a bit like me saying "I'll go for Hull KR" before Sunday's game. As I lifelong Hull FC supporter, would you also assume I'd suddenly switched allegience? |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"FFS, it's difficult enough answering one who suffers from hard of thinking, let alone a double act.
It was AN OPINION of the chances of the declared candidates. A tip if you prefer'"
I smell a wriggling slippery fish. Flip flopping all over the plaice. To get caught changing from the Starboard wing candidate to a far Port is a whale of an about turn. We shouldn't skate over the fact that you've been caught in a storm and your "OPINION" has sunk to new depths. Is the "tip" you speak of in reality an iceberg!  |
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| Quote ="Lord Elpers"
So before the hard left baffoon took the stage '"
The only person I know who regularly managed to misspell the word b Uffoon was Standee but I understand he's been banned from these here boards |
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| Quote ="cod'ead"The only person I know who regularly managed to misspell the word bUffoon was Standee but I understand he's been banned from these here boards'"
Quote ="cod'ead"Look barmpot, it's a bit like me saying "I'll go for Hull KR" before Sunday's game. As I lifelong Hull FC supporter, would you also assume I'd suddenly switched allegience?'"
I see you managed to misspell allegi Ance ......does this make you Standee? |
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Tell the crash team not to bother. This thread is smoked.
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Looks like all of the momentum is behind Corbyn. The other candidates seem to have given up.
The worst outcome for Labour would be a narrow defeat for Corbyn. It would be open warfare up to the next election. At least if he gets the job it will prove once and for all whether the hard left is electable.
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| Quote ="Cibaman"Looks like all of the momentum is behind Corbyn. The other candidates seem to have given up.
The worst outcome for Labour would be a narrow defeat for Corbyn. It would be open warfare up to the next election. At least if he gets the job it will prove once and for all whether the hard left is electable.'"
If you seriously believe that Corbyn is "hard left", then you're either away with the fairies or it shows just how far, since Blair, that Labour have moved to the right |
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