Which proves just how utterly clueless the idiot is and how much he doesn't give a damn about anyone but his mates.

Dally your a star.
Your abillity to argue/debate with so many left wing loonies all at the same time is remarkable

You have to hand it to Osborne and his circle for spin. We are back in recession and the line is "this shows just how important it is for us not to be distracted from our current credible strategy in the face of such tough economic environment".

However one cautionary note I would say is it may yet be that we aren't actually in recession and the final figures for last quarter are healthier than the first estimate released yesterday...bearing in mind they are making the estimate off 40% of the total evidence they use by the time the final estimate comes out. The indicators produced by private sector firms where they survey firms in different sectors and ask them what is happening to orders, employment etc, have been perking up a bit in the last quarter, not suggesting anything brilliant but suggesting things were slightly improving rather than worsening. Those are not official measures of course but they do indicate what the 'word on the street' is in industry and so you can usually see whether things are getting better or worse from them before the figures come out. I would be surprised if industry was being falsely confident so I wonder whether the revision will end up showing growth is flat or 0.1% growth rather than contraction.

[url=http://www.businessinsider.com/dear-all-uk-citizens-please-send-this-chart-to-your-prime-minister-2012-4Cameron is not an idiot, so why does he sound like one?[/url

Except of course that the loonies are on the other side. The policies being tried by Osbourne are the exact same policies used in the thirties to combat that recession. They resulted in hunger marches and mass unemployment that was only cured by WWII. Why should things be any different today?

Look at the relative graphs and we're growing even slower than in the 30s. And this lot want to give us more of the same?

Right then. What would you prescribe?

As I see it to cut the unsustainable deficit and still growing debt (which HMG are currently failing to do, despite being their flagship policy) there is a combination of options:

- raise taxes
- raise tax take through economic growth
- cuy government spending

How would you go about it and why?

Always makes me chuckle, this. A poster or posters slam government policies which are even to an economic illiterate making things much worse, and some apologist comes back with "well, what would YOU do"?.

As if any person is qualified to be Chancellor of the Exchequer and could post a 25,000 page economic plan for the country.

Idiot.

The general and rather obvious point is NOT to do what they are doing, because they said it would work, yet all indicators clearly and indisputably point to it NOT WORKING Dally.

No, there is no monster lurking under Gideon's bed, or a malevolent fairy somewhere cursing his potions, such that despite his genius efforts, everything is getting worse rather than better.

It just seems so fundamentally basic; they are throwing more and more people out of work (what is it now - 20% of the entire young generation on the scrapheap??), and everyone has less and ever less to spend, whilst at the same time being relentlessly mugged by increases in tax and the march of prices such as fuel (big Brucie bonus there for Gideon).

How the fsck can he think it is even possible for a coutry to get better when nobody has any money left, half have no job, and the rest are being squeezed to the fscking pip squeaking point and mugged at every opportunity? What is going to kick start the economy?

On top of all that, we see the lying barstards cosying up to the big businessmen/bankers who will provide their free lunch once they leave office, and giving them huge tax breaks and condoning obscene remuneration. All we see is simple and indeed blatantly obvious feathering of own and mates nests, what is there in any of this for the average man?

But George and Dave share our pain, so that's all right.

What would I prescribe? Sack the lot of 'em and sequester all their and their mates' assets.

Today's nail on the head moment

Great riposte from the EarthPig.

And this is not unexpected. Plenty of economists have been saying for some considerable time that austerity will not kick-start the economy but will simply make things worse.

Even the IMF – hardly a bastion of left ideology – [url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16771939has warned against the negative economic impact of too many cuts[/url.

Part of the problem with Osborne et al, it seems, is that it's difficult to know whether they:

• really believe austerity is the only way;

• really believe that privatising everything is the way to go (in spite of the evidence);

• simply don't have a plan B;

• simply don't have a clue;

• simply don't care and are only interested in carving up the state for the financial benefit of them and their friends, both individual and corporate.

I mean, we're English and surely it couldn't really be something as venal and corrupt as the last one?


What would I do?

Let's start by closing the tax loopholes so that, for instance, if a company such as Amazon wants to do business in the UK, then it will pay tax here.

Quote ="Dally"Right then. What would you prescribe? As I see it to cut the unsustainable deficit and still growing debt (which HMG are currently failing to do, despite being their flagship policy) there is a combination of options: - raise taxes - raise tax take through economic growth - cuy government spending How would you go about it and why?'" As I have said in this forum so many times, even before the election, ... yes, the deficit needs to be cut but "when and by how much" is the issue, it's the speed and methods that Osborne favours that are utterly wrong. Raising VAT reduces GDP. Laying-off public employees reduces GDP (despite Pickles' denials that many would lose their jobs ... what an idiot). Failing to provide fiscal stimulus reduces GDP. Comparing the UK to Greece damages confidence and reduces GDP. Putting thousands of people into the 40% bracket gives them less to spend and reduces GDP. The technical definition of a recession is two consecutive qurters of reduced GDP. Osborne's tactics are GDP-reducing ... it's his very own recession. If you compare the UK with the EU and US since 2008 ... their GDPs are now above what they were in 2008, the UK's is now 4.5% down on 2008. Ask yourself, what's the difference? He's like a lapdog sitting at the feet of Standard and Poor waiting for a biscuit. But, hey, we're all in it together. www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/polit ... -23833367/

Quote ="Dally"Right then. What would you prescribe? As I see it to cut the unsustainable deficit and still growing debt (which HMG are currently failing to do, despite being their flagship policy) there is a combination of options: - raise taxes - raise tax take through economic growth - cuy government spending How would you go about it and why?'" As I have said in this forum so many times, even before the election, ... yes, the deficit needs to be cut but "when and by how much" is the issue, it's the speed and methods that Osborne favours that are utterly wrong. Raising VAT reduces GDP. Laying-off public employees reduces GDP (despite Pickles' denials that many would lose their jobs ... what an idiot). Failing to provide fiscal stimulus reduces GDP. Comparing the UK to Greece damages confidence and reduces GDP. Putting thousands of people into the 40% bracket gives them less to spend and reduces GDP. The technical definition of a recession is two consecutive qurters of reduced GDP. Osborne's tactics are GDP-reducing ... it's his very own recession. If you compare the UK with the EU and US since 2008 ... their GDPs are now above what they were in 2008, the UK's is now 4.5% down on 2008. Ask yourself, what's the difference? He's like a lapdog sitting at the feet of Standard and Poor waiting for a biscuit. But, hey, we're all in it together. www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/polit ... -23833367/

Exactly the point I was trying to make yesterday. In stopping my ESA and giving my hubby a pay freeze for 4 years with the threat of regional pay looming, we have no spare money to spend on anything other than essentials for us to live.

This government have done nothing to promote growth whatsover probably hoping that coming in gung ho cutting everthing and everyone would just solve the problem. Well newsflash, it hasn't solved a thing except heap more misery and stress on decent, honest people who never caused it in the first place.

I am not an apologist for government policy. I am not asking for a 25,000 report. Just an overview of approach. Again, you mock their approach - but what broad alternative would you propose?

But when someone says it's not working, you ask for an alternative – as if you actually believe that, in spite of something not working, there isn't one.

Not at all. There are reasons why the policy is not working - too many illogical tax rises for one. However, some of the inane, emotional suggestions put forward above would not work either and make things worse.

They haven't a Plan B because they never had or even considered having a Plan B. They devised a [is[/ihit or bust approach to tackling the economy and it's all unravelling in front of their eyes. They had convinced themselves that a global upturn would allow them to bank enough to offer us plebs a sufficiently large sweetener that we'd forget all about the shafting we'd received, caused directly by their callous disregard for anyone apart from big business and big money.

I may seem masaochistic but I'm willing to bear more of this, if only so the generation that have never previously known life under a conservative government will hopefully see just what a bunch of evil bastads they really are

So, what broad alternative would you propose?

I sort of came to that conclusion myself some time ago, our now grown up children just never had to endure the Thatcher/Major years and probably wouldn't believe what we told them anyway - hopefully a quick four years of torment will set their minds straight for the rest of their lifetime and by the time the next generation need a short sharp shock then I'll be long gone.

I just wish that there was some opposition because the nearer the next election looms the more I keep getting these cold sweats that the same daft bas'tads will vote for the current incumbents again.

In a way, this government is a victim of its own unwavering belief in the private sector and the free market.

When economic times were relatively good, they could turn the country over to these forces with minimal disruption, other than to the working classes who frankly aren't their core support and therefore don't matter.

The private sector is being handed the keys to the country through the massive public sector cuts and reforms, only to find that there's no food in the fridge, the bank account has been cleaned out and the general public are watching them like hawks to make sure they don't take more than they are entitled to. Unsurprisingly, they've walked away and left the government to sort its own mess out, which it appears incapable of doing.

We are printing money to pay back Government bonds because that's where the real money is going - they don't trust the government to deliver on promises of economic growth but they'll always deliver to repay the loans. Instead of all the money that has been released through quatitative easing goping to the banks, they'd have been better dropping from the sky, at least it would have then been spent in the economy. If a fraction of the money printed through QE had been spent on capital projects, we'd be half-way to solving the unemployment problem.

"Growth" is going to be exceedingly difficult to achieve in our high cost economy at a time of global economic uncertainty and a desperate Eurozone (which needs breaking up asap for all our sakes. Hopefully the French socialist will get elected and the Germans pull out of the ridiculous project).

So, we're left with increasing taxes / cutting spending. Increasing taxes dampens economic activity so, sadly, we're left with cutting public spending much more dramatically, deregulation of the labour market and policy aimed at devaluing the pound.

How is being able to force the proles to work longer, for less money, at greater risks to their health and safety, going to do anything other than create wealth for those exploit their labour? And where do you think that wealth will be spent, if not on villas in tax havens and expensive tax avoidance schemes?

Henry Ford was smart enough to figure out that if he made the Model T affordable enough, and paid his workers a good enough wage, they would be able to buy his products thereby keeping his business going. Economic stimulation comes from putting spending money in the pockets of the majority of society, not in the bank accounts of the few.

Or balancing taxes, by, for example, reducing VAT/fuel duty, and reintroducing the 50% tax rate to anyone employed in an investment bank (betting shop) earning (or rather being paid - earning implies the work has a value) more than £100000 a year.

So, you want job specific taxes?

What about sportsmen for example? Doctors? Public servants (sic)?

If you have a thing about investment bankers then an article in The Guardian a few years back gave a perfect solution. As they like to think they are special, they should be treated like pole dancers. In other words, they should bid each year to work in an investment bank. The top bidders get the jobs and keep a percentage of the profits they generate. If they have a bad year the bank at least has their bid money. It would be interesting to see how many really believe they are good enough to bid a couple of million quid for the chance to work with the banks / its customers money for a year.