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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"...It'll never catch on...'"
I didn't say it wouldn't.
I was simply pointing out the disingenous interpretation.
That the brinkmanship is about getting more money for themselves, at the expense of the workforce, is a valid opinion.
Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"...However, is it not possible that with a Unite membership of 1.3 million, they couldn't find someone a tad more PHOTOGENIC? '"
I'm not concerned with the prettiness or otherwise of Trade Union officials but, hey-ho, each to their own, knock yourself out. |
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"I didn't say it wouldn't.
It does seem that the brinkmanship is about getting more money for themselves at the expense of the workforce...'"
Not least since the entire row was kicked off, by the company, about something that had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
The company was looking for an excuse to have a row. |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"Yes, imagine that! Someone tasked with input which results in increasing Company profit, and job security for their workforce, should get to share in this financial good fortune with other shareholders.
It'll never catch on.
However, is it not possible that with a Unite membership of 1.3 million, they couldn't find someone a tad more [url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2478046/The-bullies-led-political-Neanderthal-Why-Unite-shown-true-colours.htmlPHOTOGENIC[/url? And will the bold Ed step up and smack down the guys whose votes got him the top job?'"
Good article by the Mail.
Unite are just bullies and the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Good article by the Mail.
Unite are just bullies and the best way to deal with bullies is to stand up to them.'"
Answered the questions put to you yet?
Oh dear: no you haven't. One is left to assume that you can't. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"Not least since the entire row was kicked off, by the company, about something that had nothing whatsoever to do with it.
The company was looking for an excuse to have a row.'"
[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478460/Unite-boss-Stevie-Deans-quits-Labour-activities-triggered-shock-closure-Grangemouth.htmlExit stage left[/url as the former theatre critic (unpaid) of the Morning Star may have observed. |
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"[url=http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2478460/Unite-boss-Stevie-Deans-quits-Labour-activities-triggered-shock-closure-Grangemouth.htmlExit stage left[/url as the former theatre critic (unpaid) of the Morning Star may have observed.'"
According to some here, company finances were the problem. Which rather begs the question of why the company therefore needed to use something completely unrelated to trigger a row. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"No, I'd say that is more akin to Communism than the sort of Socialism that we have ever seen in the history of Socialism in the UK.
It is however the view of most Americans that Socialism IS Communism hence their panic at the first post WWII Labour government and the view of most Republicans ever since.'"
That description of Socialism is straight from the Oxford English Dictionary - so are suggesting they have got it wrong? |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"That description of Socialism is straight from the Oxford English Dictionary - so are suggesting they have got it wrong?'"
He's pointing out that there are differing ideas of what constitutes socialism in different countries/cultures.
A single definition does not, for instance, take account of the long-held analysis of British socialism as owing 'more to Methodism than Marx' (which does go some way to explaining the prudery of much of the British left, though). |
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| Quote ="Mintball"You may need to begin with an understanding of what socialism is and how it differs from communism.
But no, irrespective of accuracy, it doesn't come even close to providing a basis for what "a supposed socialist" should expect to receive as pay in any society, and particularly not in a society that is not organised in such a way.
Mind, "perhaps" is not a sound basis for trying to provide something concrete as a basis for your comment, although it might suggest that you have made the comment without actually thinking about it.
 '"
As I said this quote comes straight from the Oxford English Dictionary - picked so that you could not do what you have just done - blur the lines with interpretation. You may think - as usual - that yours is the only view that counts I would trust the scholars at the dictionary more.
The point is this if you spout socialist retoric like McClusky then you should be seen to be at least adopting some of its principles. Better spread of wealth would be a major principle of Socialism - not sure how having a very expensive final salary scheme achieves that, driving large expensive car also, huge salary also. It would be interesting to see where he stayed in Manchester for the Labour Ed bashing? All of this is being paid for by members who will earning significantly less and have significantly worse pension arrangements than McClusky. He is a typical Champagne Socialist - looking after number one whilst spouting about the social equality - who needs to reign his neck in to avoid looking more out of touch than he does already. |
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| Quote ="Mintball"He's pointing out that there are differing ideas of what constitutes socialism in different countries/cultures.
A single definition does not, for instance, take account of the long-held analysis of British socialism as owing 'more to Methodism than Marx' (which does go some way to explaining the prudery of much of the British left, though).
And it still does not answer the question of the going rate that a "supposed socialist" should expect for a given job.'"
You could define Socialism in an infinite number of ways - just as you are trying do now. Interesting how you put your quotes from other people as being the definite comment on any topic yet when others do the same you question the validity - sad really!!
What bit of a relationship between the lowest paid and the highest did you not get? so say the lowest is on minimum wage would it be unreasonable in a socialist society that the top earn 5 times that?
It isn't just McClusky's wage it will be the cost of running him - which I bet will not be a lot different to his salary. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"As I said this quote comes straight from the Oxford English Dictionary - picked so that you could not do what you have just done - blur the lines with interpretation. You may think - as usual - that yours is the only view that counts I would trust the scholars at the dictionary more...'"
It's a definition. I haven't disputed that. You're the one who posted something that has not an iota of relevance to the question you were asked.
Quote ="Sal Paradise"The point is this if you spout socialist retoric like McClusky then you should be seen to be at least adopting some of its principles. Better spread of wealth would be a major principle of Socialism - not sure how having a very expensive final salary scheme achieves that, driving large expensive car also, huge salary also. It would be interesting to see where he stayed in Manchester for the Labour Ed bashing? All of this is being paid for by members who will earning significantly less and have significantly worse pension arrangements than McClusky. He is a typical Champagne Socialist - looking after number one whilst spouting about the social equality - who needs to reign his neck in to avoid looking more out of touch than he does already.'"
It's an irrelevance.
It does not answer the question of the going rate that a "supposed socialist" should expect for a given job.
Indeed, if one were to apply that definition to the question, one could say that, in a society that was organised the way your "supposed socialist" might wish – "a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole" – that suggests that that same "supposed socialist" might be among those deciding what pay is awarded for what job etc.
In which case, it might be anything. Redistribution, if you will, doesn't just have to work downwards. I would also suggest that McCluskey's pay is lower than that of many CEOs in charge of organisations on a scale comparable with Unite.
However, what that definition does not do is:
* suggest any level of renumeration;
* suggest the "supposed socialist" should be on a low income in order not to be "supposed" any more – that is only your interpretation, and we know how little you value interpretation from your comment above;
* have any relevance to the question when concerned with pay in a society that is not organised in such a way.
And for goodness sake – instead of spouting yet another unthinking soundbite, find the bit where it ever says that a socialist shouldn't enjoy champagne, because I'll note that both Fred and Charlie did, and never suggested nobody else should. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"That description of Socialism is straight from the Oxford English Dictionary - so are suggesting they have got it wrong?'"
Why didn't you quote the entire text from the dictionary definition?
[urlhttp://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/socialism[/url
This is it:
[inoun
[mass noun
[list a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism. [/list:u
The term ‘socialism’ has been used to describe positions as far apart as anarchism, Soviet state Communism, and social democracy; however, it necessarily implies an opposition to the untrammelled workings of the economic market. The socialist parties that have arisen in most European countries from the late 19th century have generally tended towards social democracy[/i
So clearly as [uyour reference site states[/u term ‘socialism’ has been used to describe many different positions and all you are doing is selectively quoting the one part that suits your prejudice. |
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| Quote ="DaveO"Why didn't you quote the entire text from the dictionary definition?
[urlhttp://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/socialism[/url
This is it:
[inoun
[mass noun
[list a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism. [/list:u
The term ‘socialism’ has been used to describe positions as far apart as anarchism, Soviet state Communism, and social democracy; however, it necessarily implies an opposition to the untrammelled workings of the economic market. The socialist parties that have arisen in most European countries from the late 19th century have generally tended towards social democracy[/i
So clearly as [uyour reference site states[/u term ‘socialism’ has been used to describe many different positions and all you are doing is selectively quoting the one part that suits your prejudice.'"
LOL |
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Quote ="Sal Paradise"...Better spread of wealth would be a major principle of Socialism...'"
That accords with my own personal view of Socialism (I'm probably a Social Democrat).
What actually constitutes that better spread of wealth, I guess, depends on one's own views.
So, whilst I think of myself as a Socialist (of sorts), I can't and won't allow your definition to frame my view.
Quote ="Sal Paradise"...not sure how having a very expensive final salary scheme achieves that, driving large expensive car also, huge salary also. It would be interesting to see where he stayed in Manchester ...'"
This sounds dangerously like your favourite ... i.e. the politics of envy.
Quote ="Sal Paradise"...All of this is being paid for by members who will earning significantly less and have significantly worse pension arrangements than McClusky. He is a typical Champagne Socialist - looking after number one whilst spouting about the social equality - who needs to reign his neck in to avoid looking more out of touch than he does already.'"
"Champagne Socialist" ... Bingo !! ... it's been a while since you gave that meaningless term an airing.
McClusky might be paid much better and have a better pension than the members ... and I would agree he would be more credible if his pay was not such a high multiple of that of his members ... but, nonetheless, at a multiple of around five times, it's not stratospheric is it?
But that's not the point, McCluskey's remuneration by the Union is [uutterly irrelevant[/u to the rights and wrongs of his attempts to improve/maintain the remuneration of his members.
If you want to make a "spread of wealth" comparison, I'd suggest that this should compare Ratcliffe's income from Ineos against the mean income (i.e. not the average) of Ineos employees ... and my guess is that it would far, far, exceed the five-times multiple that you find so abhorrent.
I wouldn't be surprised at a hundred-times multiple.
This article www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16545898 contains a graph which shows that the income gap has risen and risen since 1979 such that it is now back where it was in the 1930's.
This is not how you build a healthy, happy or equitable society.
Back to Ineos then ... Ratcliffe runs Ineos very highly leveraged but has agreements with his creditors not to increase his debt beyond an agreed level ... the credit crunch (how that term already sounds archaic) pushed him exceedingly close to the debt limit and he has reduced cost by shifting the head office to Switzerland (after HMG wouldn't allow him to defer his VAT payments), sacking workforce, selling-off bits of the business and is now (in my guess) trying to get the pensions monkey off his back ... but he knew what the pension shortfall was when he bought the company and now he's using bullying brinkmanship (and, IMHO, lies about the refinery) to rid himself of that responsibility. |
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Quote ="Sal Paradise"...Better spread of wealth would be a major principle of Socialism...'"
That accords with my own personal view of Socialism (I'm probably a Social Democrat).
What actually constitutes that better spread of wealth, I guess, depends on one's own views.
So, whilst I think of myself as a Socialist (of sorts), I can't and won't allow your definition to frame my view.
Quote ="Sal Paradise"...not sure how having a very expensive final salary scheme achieves that, driving large expensive car also, huge salary also. It would be interesting to see where he stayed in Manchester ...'"
This sounds dangerously like your favourite ... i.e. the politics of envy.
Quote ="Sal Paradise"...All of this is being paid for by members who will earning significantly less and have significantly worse pension arrangements than McClusky. He is a typical Champagne Socialist - looking after number one whilst spouting about the social equality - who needs to reign his neck in to avoid looking more out of touch than he does already.'"
"Champagne Socialist" ... Bingo !! ... it's been a while since you gave that meaningless term an airing.
McClusky might be paid much better and have a better pension than the members ... and I would agree he would be more credible if his pay was not such a high multiple of that of his members ... but, nonetheless, at a multiple of around five times, it's not stratospheric is it?
But that's not the point, McCluskey's remuneration by the Union is [uutterly irrelevant[/u to the rights and wrongs of his attempts to improve/maintain the remuneration of his members.
If you want to make a "spread of wealth" comparison, I'd suggest that this should compare Ratcliffe's income from Ineos against the mean income (i.e. not the average) of Ineos employees ... and my guess is that it would far, far, exceed the five-times multiple that you find so abhorrent.
I wouldn't be surprised at a hundred-times multiple.
This article www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16545898 contains a graph which shows that the income gap has risen and risen since 1979 such that it is now back where it was in the 1930's.
This is not how you build a healthy, happy or equitable society.
Back to Ineos then ... Ratcliffe runs Ineos very highly leveraged but has agreements with his creditors not to increase his debt beyond an agreed level ... the credit crunch (how that term already sounds archaic) pushed him exceedingly close to the debt limit and he has reduced cost by shifting the head office to Switzerland (after HMG wouldn't allow him to defer his VAT payments), sacking workforce, selling-off bits of the business and is now (in my guess) trying to get the pensions monkey off his back ... but he knew what the pension shortfall was when he bought the company and now he's using bullying brinkmanship (and, IMHO, lies about the refinery) to rid himself of that responsibility. | |
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On a related note, I saw a tweet by Richard Branson earlier this week about an article on Henry Ford, apparently during a trial v the Dodge Brothers (who wanted 75% of Ford's $39,000,000 bank balance paid in dividends, Ford wanted to expand the plant and employ more people) he talks about his idea of "the purpose of business".
A small selection from it:
[i"Henry Ford, speaking to what he saw the true purpose of his company and business: in essence, to give people transformative freedom through ubiquity of the automobile and through meaningful employment to a large number of people at wages enabling better livelihoods.
In a just few words, he relegates financial profit almost to ‘also-ran’ status, and a by-product of pursuing meaningful things well, with meaningful outcomes. Or in his word at court: “Organized to do as much good as we can, everywhere, for everybody concerned.”
In it, he even goes on to share the idea of a “reasonable profit” – not too much, but just the right amount to continue to go on doing those meaningful things."[/i
A shame he was anti-semitic.
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| Quote ="Him"On a related note...'"
Henry Ford also believed in paying high wages to a) attract the best workers and b) because it was good for the economy.
Of course, if anyone could have undercut him by fair means or foul, he wouldn't have been able to adhere to that policy ... which is, to my mind, where Government and legislation needs to step in, to ensure that (what I would call) bad practices and unfair terms are not foisted onto the workforce of a country, otherwise it's just an ultimately self-defeating short-termist race to the bottom which actually shrinks the economy in the longer term, widening the income gap all the time.
n.b. I'm not advocating over-payment (which leads to ruinous inflation) and I'm not riling against increased efficiency (where it really is increased efficiency rather than simple and/or unfair cost-cutting to benefit an already over-comfortable and small section of society).
Rather, I'm thinking of the many calls we hear from captains of industry bemoaning employment legislation that they see as restrictive, and the likelihood that our current government will see it in the same way.
There needs to be maintained a basic level of fair treatment of the workforce (aka society), otherwise democracy is a worthless sham of little bread and disappearingly few circuses. |
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Quote ="El Barbudo"That accords with my own personal view of Socialism (I'm probably a Social Democrat).
What actually constitutes that better spread of wealth, I guess, depends on one's own views.
So, whilst I think of myself as a Socialist (of sorts), I can't and won't allow your definition to frame my view.
This sounds dangerously like your favourite ... i.e. the politics of envy.
"Champagne Socialist" ... Bingo !! ... it's been a while since you gave that meaningless term an airing.
McClusky might be paid much better and have a better pension than the members ... and I would agree he would be more credible if his pay was not such a high multiple of that of his members ... but, nonetheless, at a multiple of around five times, it's not stratospheric is it?
But that's not the point, McCluskey's remuneration by the Union is [uutterly irrelevant[/u to the rights and wrongs of his attempts to improve/maintain the remuneration of his members.
If you want to make a "spread of wealth" comparison, I'd suggest that this should compare Ratcliffe's income from Ineos against the mean income (i.e. not the average) of Ineos employees ... and my guess is that it would far, far, exceed the five-times multiple that you find so abhorrent.
I wouldn't be surprised at a hundred-times multiple.
This article www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16545898 contains a graph which shows that the income gap has risen and risen since 1979 such that it is now back where it was in the 1930's.
This is not how you build a healthy, happy or equitable society.
Back to Ineos then ... Ratcliffe runs Ineos very highly leveraged but has agreements with his creditors not to increase his debt beyond an agreed level ... the credit crunch (how that term already sounds archaic) pushed him exceedingly close to the debt limit and he has reduced cost by shifting the head office to Switzerland (after HMG wouldn't allow him to defer his VAT payments), sacking workforce, selling-off bits of the business and is now (in my guess) trying to get the pensions monkey off his back ... but he knew what the pension shortfall was when he bought the company and now he's using bullying brinkmanship (and, IMHO, lies about the refinery) to rid himself of that responsibility.'"
I don't find that gap between Ratcliffe's earnings and the rest an issue - not sure I saw him standing up at the Labour party conference spouting left wing clap trap. My times five was an attempt engage Mintball in actually stating a position on this issue rather than posting a link to someone else's point. For me McClusky, a bit like Bob Crow lacks credibility, he doesn't practise what he preaches a bit like Major on family values that is the issue for me!!
So how did McClusky "improve/maintain the remuneration of his members in this case"?
I agree with you Ratcliffe is trying to limit his pension liabilities before he closes the plant - I suspect the site has 3 years tops. |
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Quote ="El Barbudo"That accords with my own personal view of Socialism (I'm probably a Social Democrat).
What actually constitutes that better spread of wealth, I guess, depends on one's own views.
So, whilst I think of myself as a Socialist (of sorts), I can't and won't allow your definition to frame my view.
This sounds dangerously like your favourite ... i.e. the politics of envy.
"Champagne Socialist" ... Bingo !! ... it's been a while since you gave that meaningless term an airing.
McClusky might be paid much better and have a better pension than the members ... and I would agree he would be more credible if his pay was not such a high multiple of that of his members ... but, nonetheless, at a multiple of around five times, it's not stratospheric is it?
But that's not the point, McCluskey's remuneration by the Union is [uutterly irrelevant[/u to the rights and wrongs of his attempts to improve/maintain the remuneration of his members.
If you want to make a "spread of wealth" comparison, I'd suggest that this should compare Ratcliffe's income from Ineos against the mean income (i.e. not the average) of Ineos employees ... and my guess is that it would far, far, exceed the five-times multiple that you find so abhorrent.
I wouldn't be surprised at a hundred-times multiple.
This article www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16545898 contains a graph which shows that the income gap has risen and risen since 1979 such that it is now back where it was in the 1930's.
This is not how you build a healthy, happy or equitable society.
Back to Ineos then ... Ratcliffe runs Ineos very highly leveraged but has agreements with his creditors not to increase his debt beyond an agreed level ... the credit crunch (how that term already sounds archaic) pushed him exceedingly close to the debt limit and he has reduced cost by shifting the head office to Switzerland (after HMG wouldn't allow him to defer his VAT payments), sacking workforce, selling-off bits of the business and is now (in my guess) trying to get the pensions monkey off his back ... but he knew what the pension shortfall was when he bought the company and now he's using bullying brinkmanship (and, IMHO, lies about the refinery) to rid himself of that responsibility.'"
I don't find that gap between Ratcliffe's earnings and the rest an issue - not sure I saw him standing up at the Labour party conference spouting left wing clap trap. My times five was an attempt engage Mintball in actually stating a position on this issue rather than posting a link to someone else's point. For me McClusky, a bit like Bob Crow lacks credibility, he doesn't practise what he preaches a bit like Major on family values that is the issue for me!!
So how did McClusky "improve/maintain the remuneration of his members in this case"?
I agree with you Ratcliffe is trying to limit his pension liabilities before he closes the plant - I suspect the site has 3 years tops. | |
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| Quote ="DaveO"Why didn't you quote the entire text from the dictionary definition?
[urlhttp://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/socialism[/url
This is it:
[inoun
[mass noun
[list a political and economic theory of social organization which advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole.
policy or practice based on the political and economic theory of socialism.
(in Marxist theory) a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of Communism. [/list:u
The term ‘socialism’ has been used to describe positions as far apart as anarchism, Soviet state Communism, and social democracy; however, it necessarily implies an opposition to the untrammelled workings of the economic market. The socialist parties that have arisen in most European countries from the late 19th century have generally tended towards social democracy[/i
So clearly as [uyour reference site states[/u term ‘socialism’ has been used to describe many different positions and all you are doing is selectively quoting the one part that suits your prejudice.'"
Because they were listed as two separate interpretations - simple really. Not one continuous version as you are implying here. |
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I'm still waiting for an answer: what should a "supposed socialist" expect as wages?
You have not provided an iota of a basis for claiming that he's overpaid for "a supposed socialist".
Now you bring Crow up – for Christ's sake: he lives in council house. What more do you want? Do you get upset that he doesn't live anywhere flasher, and therefore enable you to complain about that? Standee does – he's apparently holding up all of one whole household of really poor people having a home.
Which brings us right back to what a "supposed socialist" gets to earn and where they get to live before a bunch of right-wing nutjobs get to pretend they comprehend ethics – which they're incapable of grasping it on any other point, like bankers, as but one example.
The amount of crap that some of you lot come out with is really gobsmacking.
You need to supply real, concrete evidence to back up your comments, instead of all this floundering around when caught out spouting soundbite bôllôcks. Try facts for a change. Who knows – you might even like them.
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| Quote ="Him"LOL'"
Ha ha - I see you failed to answer any of the points - seems you are getting bashed up on every thread - so sad. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise" For me McClusky, a bit like Bob Crow lacks credibility, he doesn't practise what he preaches a bit like Major on family values that is the issue for me!!'"
Yep, it's a bit like millionaire Prime Ministers spouting that, 'were all in it together'.
Then take four holidays in a year whilst ordinary people face cuts, zero hours working and job insecurity. |
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| Quote ="WIZEB"Yep, it's a bit like millionaire Prime Ministers spouting that, 'were all in it together'.
Then take four holidays in a year whilst ordinary people face cuts, zero hours working and job insecurity.'"
I'm an 'ordinary person' I don't face any cuts, any zero hours working or any job insecurity. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"I'm an 'ordinary person' '"
The jury's still out on that one sunshine. |
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| Quote ="Ajw71"I'm an 'ordinary person' I don't face any cuts, any zero hours working or any job insecurity.'"
Well thats alright then. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise":2kbvf9adHa ha - I see you failed to answer any of the points.'" :2kbvf9ad
irony
ˈʌɪrəni/
noun
noun: irony
The expression of one’s meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect:‘Don’t go overboard with the gratitude,’ he rejoined with heavy irony
a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a resulticon_surprised.gifne of life’s little ironies
(also dramatic or tragic irony) a literary technique, originally used in Greek tragedy, by which the full significance of a character’s words or actions is clear to the audience or reader although unknown to the character. |
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