Quote ="JerryChicken"Most benefits aren't provided just because a claimant asks for them, even Child Allowance has to be accompanied by evidence that a child exists, claims for WTC and CTC have application forms which are at least a dozen pages long and ask for proof of right to claim which are individually checked (I've been checked) and disability/incapacity have always required proof from suitably qualified medical professionals and sometimes an interview with the Department providing the benefit (whatever name they were using for themselves at the time). What is bizarre about the current situation is that you have a private business examining all medical claimants without reference to their medical notes or supporting evidence from their medical practitioners - take the example of the blind mental patient that I linked to two pages back - his ATOS assessment which concluded that he was fit for work and not entitled to housing benefit was carried out by a physiotherapist who had no experience of mental health issues or knowledge of his blindness, and why would a physio be expected to understand mental health problems, more importantly why would they be placed into a job that they have no qualifications for in the same way that you wouldn't call an ice cream van if your central heating boiler broke down ?'" Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair

Quote ="JerryChicken"Most benefits aren't provided just because a claimant asks for them, even Child Allowance has to be accompanied by evidence that a child exists, claims for WTC and CTC have application forms which are at least a dozen pages long and ask for proof of right to claim which are individually checked (I've been checked) and disability/incapacity have always required proof from suitably qualified medical professionals and sometimes an interview with the Department providing the benefit (whatever name they were using for themselves at the time). What is bizarre about the current situation is that you have a private business examining all medical claimants without reference to their medical notes or supporting evidence from their medical practitioners - take the example of the blind mental patient that I linked to two pages back - his ATOS assessment which concluded that he was fit for work and not entitled to housing benefit was carried out by a physiotherapist who had no experience of mental health issues or knowledge of his blindness, and why would a physio be expected to understand mental health problems, more importantly why would they be placed into a job that they have no qualifications for in the same way that you wouldn't call an ice cream van if your central heating boiler broke down ?'" Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair

Quote ="Hull White Star"Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair'" This quote probably says it all ... Quote However, the DWP said it would appeal against the ruling, and stated it did not intend to halt the assessment process.'" The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.

Quote ="Hull White Star"Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair'" This quote probably says it all ... Quote However, the DWP said it would appeal against the ruling, and stated it did not intend to halt the assessment process.'" The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.

Quote ="JerryChicken"This quote probably says it all ... The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.'" I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17

Quote ="JerryChicken"This quote probably says it all ... The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.'" I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17

Quote ="Hull White Star"I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17'" I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? How much public money have we paid them ?

Quote ="Hull White Star"I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17'" I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? How much public money have we paid them ?

Quote ="JerryChicken"I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? [uHow much public money have we paid them ?[/u'" Unfortunately because Atos are a private company you cannot put in for a FoI request. But below is one put into the DWP asking that question: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... o_taxpayer [iThe Department for Work and Pensions re-awarded Atos Origin IT Services Ltd, trading as Atos Healthcare, a new Contract to perform Medical Services on behalf of the Department from 1st September 2005. The total cost of these services amounts to approximately £801 million over a ten year period. This figure not only covers the total numbers of examinations undertaken over the full term of the contract, but also costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative costs, investment in new technology and other service improvements. The figure also covers salaries and expenses.[/i I'm assuming this amount doesn't cover appeals and tribunals which are paid for out of public money (and Atos gets the money even if the appeal/tribunal is overturned/sucessful, so it will be way in excess of the £801million quoted. And thats a 10 year contract, only until 2015. Considering Atos are one of the companies that have been brought in to assess DLA/PIP which will go way beyond 2015, I assume that figure will balloon again.

Quote ="JerryChicken"I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? [uHow much public money have we paid them ?[/u'" Unfortunately because Atos are a private company you cannot put in for a FoI request. But below is one put into the DWP asking that question: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... o_taxpayer [iThe Department for Work and Pensions re-awarded Atos Origin IT Services Ltd, trading as Atos Healthcare, a new Contract to perform Medical Services on behalf of the Department from 1st September 2005. The total cost of these services amounts to approximately £801 million over a ten year period. This figure not only covers the total numbers of examinations undertaken over the full term of the contract, but also costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative costs, investment in new technology and other service improvements. The figure also covers salaries and expenses.[/i I'm assuming this amount doesn't cover appeals and tribunals which are paid for out of public money (and Atos gets the money even if the appeal/tribunal is overturned/sucessful, so it will be way in excess of the £801million quoted. And thats a 10 year contract, only until 2015. Considering Atos are one of the companies that have been brought in to assess DLA/PIP which will go way beyond 2015, I assume that figure will balloon again.

Please point to anyone, either on here or even in the general population, who has advocated self-certification of claimants.

I used to work with a guy who was assessed (presumably by a Doctor?) as 60% disabled due to a back injury incurred in the Paras.
Now he was regularly reassessed, and guess what people?.....yep, the 60% was signed off every time, and he continued to receive a pension which reflected this.

Oddly enough, he played a better game of golf regularly than most people I know.....

So just how disabled do you have to be to get the pittance we get? Quadruple amputee in a vegetative state probably be passed as fit to work by you - well you [uare[/u a Doctor aren't you and you were at your colleagues assesments with him I presume?

All that proves is you know a lot of crap golfers

There is an unfortunate, but understandable attitude amongst many who are on benefits, in that they should be receiving much more than the system provides. They may well be occasions when this is justified, but I suspect no amount of money will compensate anyone on disability for the loss of their health.

...which isn't actually what most seriously ill (temporary or otherwise) and disabled people are asking for, I've yet to see a newspaper report where a person in any form of disability benefit is asking for compensation from government funds - not that such a thing exists anyway - and if the newspapers, especially the Murdoch Press haven't got around to inventing those stories yet then they must be far fetched indeed.

I didn't suggest anyone had. I was expressing bemusement at the stance taken by some regarding ESA claimants being independently assessed on their disability.

Who has?

No-one has expressed any such stance at all, this government (by their own statements) had a figure in mind of one million claimants who they "believed" were not incapacitated at all and so set themselves and their sub-contractors a target of finding them, where appropriate then independent assessments should be a part of that process.

You just don't get the ice cream man to check out your faulty gas boiler though.


For some research may I suggest that you look at some of the claimants undercover videos filmed at their own ATOS assessments (on Youtube), ignore the commentary and viewer comments and make your own mind up as to whether the assessors in those videos are looking at medical issues or simply ticking boxes in order to justify another refusal - one in particular is for a man who discloses right from the start that he has mental health issues and so he asks the assessor what experience she has in the subject, she is very reluctant to discloae "any personal details" (her quote) but eventually admits to being a "general nurse who covered some mental health topics during her training" (her quote), in other words not a mental health specialist.

Hull White Star's response....[iSo just how disabled do you have to be to get the pittance we get? [/i would at least suggest that she at least is not happy with the amount of help she receives. And I doubt it would be too much of a surprise to find that she is not alone in feeling this, and as I have already said, with some justification at times.

And aren't all benefits dependent on the Government fiscal Policies?

An interesting comment from the twittersphere

More evidence of the lunacy of this bunch of sociopaths:

[url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/right-to-buy-council-house-tenants-can-2982721#.UsaG3PGqPJs.twitterCouncil tenants can buy homes at less than a third of market value[/url

So in a time of acute, going on chronic, shortage of affordable homes, Eric Pickles's answer is to increase the discount on Right to Buy from 60% to 70%. But it's OK, the money raised will be used to build more affordable homes. Now I'm no mathematician but if you've only got one third of ther money to build homes with then surely you can only build one third the number of homes to replace those sold. Wouldn't that then exacerbate the shortage of affordable homes?

I've no problems at all with Right to Buy. It was a great policy when Maggie introduced it, and helped many people get onto the property ladder. In my parents case, I was delighted to give them the money to buy their council house. It was in a nice street, in a good area, and they were surrounded by neighbours they had known for over 30 years. It also gave them security in their retirement years, and a few quid extra in the weekly budget. And their first investment as homeowners, was to replace the bog standard front door.....as did everyone else in the street who bought theirs!

The only disappointment I have is that Cameron has not followed up on his pledge to build a new one, for every one sold.

On the same subject its all very well speaking of "top-up"insurance (private) at a fee of £20 a month but in reality that is utter bollax and a figure plucked out of thin air.

Does anyone REALLY know how much a top-up health insurance policy would cost them, the actual cost I mean not a guestimate ?

Because most of my normal insurance is now with Aviva they send me a sales email every month to try and get me to sign up to their own brand of private health insurance which of course is nothing more than a top-up to the NHS (as is ALL private health insurance in the UK and across Europe for that matter).

I'd write to them and ask them to stop quoting me other than the fact that I'm interested to see what the REAL cost of top-up health insurance actually is, one day I'll ask them to provide details of what they do and more importantly don't cover, but thats only when I can be d then fielding all their follow-up calls.

For now, for the record, for me alone (not family cover), a 57 year old normal fit male (health check last year, christ I sound like a vet describing a horse) with no pre-existing conditions and no visits of any importance to his GP in the past 30 years, my monthly Aviva private top-up health cover (its so much more convenient when you need an operation you know) is currently standing at £99.15 per month and it increases by approx £1 each birthday.

THIS is the reason why sometimes I get a bit annoyed when fekkwits start hammering the NHS.

So they didn't live in a large council estate in Westminster Council, London under the lovely Lady Porter. And when people bought with the right to buy were hit with very large bills when they spent millions doing the estate up cosmetically and removing the central heating that was part of the rent and made you have to pay for that yourself. Something that wasn't really told to the people who chose to buy.

Though the front door thing brings a smile to me as people did that. It was almost like a display of difference. "We're not council anymore!"

And of course you'll inherit it



But you're right, there would have been no problem at all if the money raised had been used to replace the housing stock which it could have done almost on a one-to-one basis as the rebuild cost is far, far less than the market price especially for social housing which can often be done on cheap brownfield or useless agricultural land - or land which the bloody council own already.

I'm perfectly happy thank you because all I wanted above all else, including the benefit (which I have paid my taxes and thats the way this country works) was for the government to acknowledge my illness and disability. I am more than happy with the amount I receive because I am just glad we live in a country that helps the most vunerable of its society. And it is a pittance compared to what I was earning before I had to give up work.

Ahhh Unum, a rogue company that are banned from 47 out of the 50 states in America and have been advertising on TV here.

Another "job for the boys" deal going on - get a million disabled people off ESA, then flog 'em health insurance! Good work Tories.

In which case, he's doing exactly what Thatcher did.

It will have been in the terms of their lease agreement, their own fault for not getting sound advice.