Is it just me who's imagining a patient laid out on a psychiatrists sofa?
You're obviously going through insomniacal periods judging by your post times.

Have a lie down and we'll leave this thread to NHS Privatisation.

**** off.

Look, anyone who wants to judge the confrontation between me and this div can look at the threads.

I'm done with you. You are ****ing stupid. You think I'm stupid. So let's just agree that I don't respond to you and you don't respond to me.

Don't bother replying, just **** off.

I guess if anyone else wants to make this *deal* with me, just reply on the thread or PM me.

*deal*

FFS

Barmpot.

Bed!

Is not.

The p stands for "post", that's Latin that is ... it means "after".
The m stands for "meridiem", that's also Latin ... it means midday.

Therefore, pm means "the number of hours after noon".
Hence 12 pm is 12 hours post meridiem ... i.e. midnight.

So what's 12 am?
Well, it's not nowadays the number of hours still to go before the meridiem, otherwise it would go 12 am, 11 am, 10 am and so on until 00 am, which would be noon (actually that makes sense but our clocks go from 1 round to 12) .
We use it as the number of hours [uinto[/u the ante meridiem.
Strictly speaking, a point 12 hours into the ante meridiem period (before noon) can't exist, as the point exactly between 11am and 1pm is yer actual meridiem which can't be am (before meridiem) or pm (after meridiem), because noon can't be before noon and noon can't be after noon.

Buuuuut, as the hour hand points at the number 12 twice per 24 hours, we therefore need a name for the meridiem as "12-something" ... and as 12 [upm[/u is already busy with its job of correctly denoting midnight ... the only name that remains available, in the am-pm sense, is 12 am ... even though 12 am is, strictly speaking, meaningless.

It certainly is, as is 24.00.

It started OK but ended badly.

Indeed, 24:00 should be 00:00.

You want 11.59.59 pm, 12.00.00pm, 12.00.01am. 11.59.59am, 12.00.00am, 12.00.01pm.

Good luck with that, but it's moronic.

Yes but you want 11.59.59am, 12.00.00pm, 12.00.01pm, 11.59.59 pm, 12.00.00am, 12.00.01am
Good luck with that, but it's moronic, the consecutive 11 and 12 aren't in the same am or pm.


Actually, what I really want is a 24-hour clock to avoid confusing people (like you) who don't know what the terms ante meridiem and post meridiem mean.
Either that or use the terms noon (or mid-day) and midnight.

Anyway, it is not possible to be 12 hours into the before-noon period and still be [ubefore[/u noon ... because it IS noon at that point.
Perfectly logical.

Yes, just like everyone who isn't you.



Does that even make sense to you?



I know what they mean. Before midday and after midday. Midday is neither before or after itself.



Or you just accept that everyone else just uses the most sensible 12pm = midday and 12am = midnight.



As it's not possible to be 12 hours into the before-noon period, shouldn't you just agree that calling for noon to be 12 am is pretty dumb?

I have already said that because it's not possible to be 12 hours into the before-noon period that it cannot truly be either am or pm.
Calling it 12am is just slightly less dumb than calling it 12pm.

12 hours past noon makes sense as 12pm. (after all, midnight is genuinely 12 hours post meridiem).
12 hours past midnight does not make sense as 12pm because is not 12 hours post meridiem.

What is truly dumb is failing to use the perfectly acceptable and perfectly accurate terms midday and midnight, as I do to to avoid the ambiguity that you mortals wilfully embrace.

So as you admit one of them is meaningless, why not just accept that they are both meaningless?

12 hours after midday is MIDNIGHT. It is the start of a new day. Why push for that 1 second to be 12pm when everyone else is fine with just putting 12am?



It isn't. It is significantly more dumb for the midnight and midday to be seperate from the rest of the hours starting 12.



Yes. The precise moment of midnight makes sense as 12pm because it's 12 hours after midday. BUT IT'S ALSO 12 HOURS BEFORE MIDDAY TOO.

But 1 second after midnight is am. Arguing that one second of 1200 hours is am and one second of 0000 is pm is stupid and very few people apart from you are this daft.



Agreed. But it doesn't make sense as am either because it is the meridiem. For one ****ing second.



What is truly dumb is your refusal to accept everyone else's acceptence of noon as 12pm and midnight as 12am.

FFS

Sits back.

Smiles and shakes head.

Anyone remember forward passes, momentum and pillows?

Are they anything like b[ir[/iead cakes?

Jose, please read and digest the posts I have already made, and make some attempt to understand what I am saying.
I say that because you are making points that are already answered.


Oh, please.
I do accept that.
Not only do I accept that but it is the whole point .... if you read my earlier points you will see that is the main thrust of the argument.


Because it follows 11:59:59 pm.
Midnight is a tiny infinitessimal instant, it is the "B" in bang, the new day begins after it.
Then one second after that instant is 12:00:01am.


More dumb than to want to continue the series of 7pm, 8pm, 9pm, 10pm, 11pm with 12 [uam[/u?


Yes, and that is the reason why am and pm are not applicable to it.
Now we can either arbitrarily assign am and pm to the two boundary events of midnight and noon or we can see if there is any claim for either of them to be am or pm.

Noon cannot be said to be post or ante meridiem (on this I think we are agreed).
The fleeting instant of midnight [ucan[/u sensibly be said to be post meridiem (if only because, after an event, everything that follows, however small, is [uafter[/u it), it cannot be said to be [upart[/u of the ante-meridiem because, by definition, it isn't.

So, if you must insist on using am and pm to label these events (disappointing though it is for me to use am or pm for them), then midnight has to be the pm ... and because midnight is pm, then noon cannot be pm.


This is the point where I doubt you will ever grasp the issue.
That one second (as you put it, and which is way too long, it is an infinitely small instant, before which is pm and after which is am) must mark the [uboundary[/u between pm and am.
This is not like rugby league where you are in touch if you step on the edge of the line ... because here the line is so infinitely small it has no edges.


The best option is not to use am or pm for either of them ... but, if people will insist on using am and pm for those two instants, only midnight has any claim at all to actually being post meridiem.
Which leaves am as the label for 12 noon.


It is not "everyone else's acceptance".
I don't accept that the earth is flat either.

Straight back at you.

I've never given a moments thought about this before this thread. YOU are the one who started it with your mocking tone towards the person who gave you the appointment of 12pm.

I simply replied that 12pm was noon.

Then it started.



So why bother making the argument?



You are arguing midnight belongs to yesterday, a second after midnight belongs to today.



Yes, by a million more miles more dumb.

On a 24 hour clock it's 0000. You want that precise moment to belong to yesterday on the 12 hour system, the second afterwards to belong to today.



1200 (midnight) is the start of the new day. The start of the new day is obviously before the midday. That is why am makes perfect sense for midnight.




I don't insist. I've never even thought about it before this thread. You are the one who is arguing against what everyone else accepts.



I did a quick search. (I'm in a couple of rewards schemes and get paid to search so I often search a lot of things that aren't initially interesting enough to think about). One of the websites was an answer site. I clicked on it. Everyone said midnight was am. Some went into a bit of detail. Don't think that anyone argued otherwise.

I looked at wikipedia. There was a section on confusion between am and pm. I quoted it, but didn't attribute it.

Can you point me to someone else who insists midnight is 12pm please.

Do you think that midnight is 12pm?

Do you write midnight as 12pm?

There is probably an academic term to describe this illness.

Midnight - 12am or 12pm?

Quite ... and I stated that I was going to turn up when?
At noon, that's when.

And I correctly guessed who would start to argue a point that was unproveable.


In exactly the same terms as your argument that midnight is the start of the day, I could argue that that midnight is just as feasibly the end of the day and that it is therefore pm.
Neither would be correct.


I don't "want" that at all, that precise moment is the boundary with no duration and is not am or pm.
What I do want is for people who still use the 12 hour system to also use the correct terms noon and midnight.


Wrong, it is in neither day.


... and begins at the immediate instant [uafter[/u midnight.


No, there is no "perfect sense" for midnight being am (or pm, for that matter).


Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist.
Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions.

Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat.

Quote ="El Barbudo"Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist. Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions. Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat.'" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock Look at the section titles: Confusion at noon and midnight. Look at the table to the right of that article: Time as denoted by various devices or styles What does: Written 12-hour time(most common forms) say?

Quote ="El Barbudo"Come now, no genuinely authoritative source is going to say that 12am or 12 pm is correct, for the simple reason that they don't exist. Your argument cannot be proven, except as some sort of worthless poll of illogical conventions. Anyway, it is now well into the afternoon and I'm going for something to eat.'" en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12-hour_clock Look at the section titles: Confusion at noon and midnight. Look at the table to the right of that article: Time as denoted by various devices or styles What does: Written 12-hour time(most common forms) say?