Neither do the “voters” in that case then

So you are saying surgeons paid £250k are underpaid and if they were paid double they would make less mistakes - seriously you actually believe that? These are highly trained costly individuals - it isn't the nurses that are making these mistakes.

I asked a simple question - what is the correct funding level for the NHS and what services do we expect it to deliver?

All 20m of them!! only those who didn't vote Tory know what they were doing?

Nope - That's not what I said

But if those surgeons are doing 25 operations a week instead 20
If those surgeons aren't supported by enough staff, tired staff, undertrained/under valued staff etc. etc. etc.

But I know - Let's just cut waste
But I know - It's just the teachers fault
But I know - It's Jeremy Corbyn's or Kier Starmer's fault

I’d be open to increasing the per capita spend to something like that in Australia, Canada, Belgium, France and Denmark. And using them as benchmark for delivery. Or even Ireland. If (as I’d hope) we could do slightly more for a similar price, so much the better.

Yes, given how lean the NHS is run any additional funding to bring it back even close up to par would likely have an outsize benefit in fixing up some of the most gaping, obvious holes in the system.

Have you heard much in the past about overworked surgeons? no all you hear is growing waiting lists!!

So reduce the waste - more money to spend on frontline staff - as for the teachers, less said about them the better as for Corbyn/Starmer

I fear you live in some parallel country to the rest of us where fat cat teachers and nhs staff sit around with their feet up all day searching out new ways to scam the "hard working" (LOL, as our productivity figures attest) tax payer.

I think you live in a very insular mental state where yours is the only view of the world is correct. Fortunately/unfortunately the world is a very different place to how you would want it to be.

Very few people would suggest teachers have covered themselves in glory - kids education has been more a disaster and with have greater long term impacts and effect far more than Covid ever will. The fact they had to dragged kicking and screaming back to work when they are no more at risk than anybody says much

On the NHS - yes ICU nurses/doctors have worked extremely hard but they are the minority - A&E for example was empty during the first lockdown. Routine surgery has been virtually abandoned not because they didn't have the staff.

As we are not really a manufacturing economy - output productivity is less important here than in say Germany How do you measure the mental agility of a city trader or an advertising creative because that is where the wealth generation really is?

Surely it must tell you that in the Politico daily posts which seem to be where you get all your points of view from - try thinking for yourself its really enlightening?

It would appear that when things go well you give credit to the government but when things go badly it's the fault of the people at the bottom.
Interesting.

Out of interest when did teachers ever stop working

Just checking you're still pretending to be outraged when party leaders lie in the House of Commons.
Would be terrible if you were exposed as a mindless troll.

Given that children were getting a fraction of the study time they would normally get and we still had the same number of teacher you don't have to be Einstein to figure out a big chunk weren't contributing much.

Nah. I’ve just chosen not to debate with someone who has to resort to insults.

Again, when did teachers stop working ??

If they weren't teaching then I would suggest they weren't working - maybe you class laying in the garden drinking pina coladas in the early Summer sun as working - I don't.

The kids could easily have sat their exams in 2020 - the teachers and their unions didn't seem to keen to facilitate that - I wonder why?

Kids were getting a fraction of their normal education - so as we had the same number of teacher delivering significantly less teaching what were the majority of the teachers doing?

Getting paid and working are two very different concepts

Who was running the on line lessons, both in terms of prep and the actual zoom lessons etc ??

I fully accept that not all kids could access them but, once again, you find it easier to slur the teaching profession (ala The Daily Mail) than give any support to the teaching profession.
Also, you are aware that vulnerable children and those of key workers did attend school.
Again, who was teaching/supporting them.

Your whole narrative is so stereotypically right wing, it beggars belief.

Mind you, we've gone from clapping the nurses etc, to kicking them (again) so, it really is no surprise.

Certainly the few teachers that I know HAVE been WORKING but, dont let that spoil your opinion.

It's the voice of someone who has never had to work in a criminally underfunded public sector but absolutely believes the lies they read in the hard-right press.

As with people in all sectors you will have lazy and harder-working people, some who short-cut and some who are utterly dedicated and diligent. I've seen plenty of all types working for me in the private sector. For some reason ZZB can't get past some weird belief that people in the public sector are totally different to all other human beings - indeed as with much right wing media venom, dehumanising people is core to their toxic rhetoric.

Even the unions had to admit teaching during the first lockdown was 'disappointing' both in volume and quality. It had very little to do with access for kids as the lessons weren't there to access. Compare the quality of lesson available at private schools during lockdown 1 to the public schools!! There were a lot of kids who simply weren't educated nothing to do with access. Before lockdown 1 teaching unions actively discouraged on line learning - no wonder they were caught with their pants down when a change of output methodology was needed

I am not disputing schools were open but it was miniscule the numbers that actually attended, lessons were learned and by everyone's admission things were very different during the last lockdown.

We must differ on our views on the teaching profession and especially their union representation. No doubt you will also be suggesting they get a huge increase in payment?

Traffic through the NHS was down 80% through 2020 - that would suggest a lot of nurses had a pretty easy time during the pandemic - why should they get a huge increase for doing less work? By all means reward those at the sharp end with a substantial one of bonus c£10k but to increase the pay to them all doesn't pass scrutiny.

The difference is that in the private sector those that don't pull their weight usually get found and moved on - seldom a job for life - not many non-jobs in the private sector - I bet virtually every public body including councils will have them.. Even ACAS will admit waste through absenteeism is way higher in the public sector - perhaps if these organisations were leaner their funding would stretch further?

I am not disputing there are fantastic people working in the public sector - we can all recall a teacher/lecturer who has had a profound impact on their personal development but why do we think the public sector should be treated differently in terms of remuneration than the private sector that in reality funds it?

You sir are cluess with regards to this, the whole lockdown has thrown a curveball to just about every sector, both public and private - people having to adapt differently- teachers

- Having planned teaching structures completely blown apart
-Re-planning for new structures but this changing sometimes daily
-Teaching pupils in school
-Having to try to teach the same lesson as the above online, or even over the phone where pupils don’t have the online facility
- Counselling pupils who are struggling with adapting/getting behind etc
-Currently planning for pupils to be in school - then due to one failing a test the whole class/ year having to isolate, so therefore having to completely arrange that learning back to an online facility within an hour

How many businesses have worked their nuts off over the last 12 months or so, but not achieved the same results as previous years - it’s the same principle with teaching, indeed probably putting more effort in than previously just to keep their heads above water

As I say your clueless, not just on this subject but your recent comments appear to have no concept of current reality

I agree, it shouldn't. So the repeated discrepancies in public vs private pay rises (public being repeatedly lower for the avoidance of doubt) since 2010 should be addressed rather than perpetuated.

Teachers are no different to most commercial environments - change was needed and quick.

Your opinion is valid but the schools had plenty of time to prepare there are plenty of on-line platforms to copy - most professional study is now done on line.

If all these kids are working to the same curriculum then surely you only need one version of the lesson that could have been put out on a dedicated BBC channel and the teachers could have then concentrated on supporting the children - not rocket science is it? How is that private schools were up and running almost instantly but state schools couldn't get their act together?

On line teaching is not a new concept - it really isn't - flipping from classroom to on line should be a very simply process.

Loads of businesses have adapted very quickly to a change in circumstances - my wife works a major PLC they have been working from home for over a year that's 60,000 people - it can be done it is just having the desire and skill set to achieve it. How many Zoom meetings have you done - I have done hundreds you have simply just got to make it happen.

These kids are the future - sadly they have been let down by a group of adults who simply didn't react positively enough

I would suggest the majority of workers in the private sector didn't see much of an increase from 2010 - minimum wage apart which is the same in the public sector - as you well know.

The statistics of wage increases prove otherwise.