Could you please tell me the difference between Russian money, Saudi Arabian money , also money coming in from Cayman Islands and other offshore sources. Potentially all these sources may have a question mark over them. Jezza and his mates hate the city with a passion, conveniently overlooking the fact the massive tax input that comes from it. The French and Germans make no secret of the fact they want some of that business. I am certain that they wouldn’t be looking to closely at money sources .

What on earth are you whittering about?

Tell me, what about the Salisbury investigation has failed in terms of due process and rule of law? Answer: nothing. Unless you believe the tripe pouring out of Moscow, of course. And the dithering Comrade Cob for that matter. The police investigation is ongoing and the OPCW are following their procedures. In no way, shape or form have I or anyone brushed rule of law aside - because that it exactly what is happening.

Blinkered leftist Corbynites simply cannot see it and follow their leader by supporting any anti-UK/Tory sentiment. You're blurting out a lot of empty words and casting accusations with zero grounding in reality. What you're saying simply isn't true.

A Tory party 'balls deep' in Russian money wouldn't have tabled the Magnitsky amendment or voted it in unanimously and be governing over ongoing investigations.

Tigertot. You are breath of fresh air in this thread. Someone who is actually educated enough to “get it”

Regards

King James

What makes you think they don't have firm evidence already?

Cronus logic. Because the govement says it’s true without offering evidence it must be true. Just like there were weapons of mass destruction. Tip for you Cronus old bean, don’t believe everything the bbc, mail and the sun tell you.

Regards

King James

Lebron logic. Because you haven't personally been handed the evidence it must be a conspiracy. Let's just ignore the facts staring you in the face and the unequivocal support from the EU and USA, who have seen the evidence and made their own judgements and taken the significant step of confronting Russia. Let's ignore the history of the victim and which nation developed this family of nerve agent, and the track record of assassinations by Russia. Let's ignore the fact some of the best scientists in this field have analysed samples of the substance. Let's just ignore everything.

For some reason you think everything should be disclosed on a rolling basis in this case. Why is that? Normally evidence disclosure waits for trial or inquest outcomes, not to satisfy RLFannys Corbynites.

Blinkered Corbynite leftists: it can't be true if the UK says it is. Keep that red flag flying, eh comrade?

Lebron, old bean, take the tin foil hat off. You're looking rather silly.

They don't even know, yet, how the stuff was administered, so how the hell they know who did it is beyond belief. I think we may well never know for certain. Not for a generation at least.

What I know or think from what I have heard & read;
Novichok was developed in the former USSR (not Russia as such) in the 70s. It has never been used by USSR/Russia.
Others may have synthesised it & developed it further. Porton Down wouldn't have been able to identify it so quickly otherwise. It can apparently be relatively easily synthesised in a standard laboratory, so the assertion it must be a nation state is cobblers.
I don't think Putin is involved (nor do any of the academic or military experts I have heard) though I think the most likely explanation is that agents allied to Putin who can act with impunity did carry it out or arranged it.
I don't think it is beyond imagination that establishment/right wing forces within this country, not directly linked to Government, saw it as a Falklands moment for an unpopular & clueless PM, or an opportunity to return to a cold war.

Very little - and Labour have been very clear about their stance on all three, so you'll feel very comfortable as a converted Corbynite. Welcome aboard comrade!

Just because we haven't been told, doesn't mean they don't know, or have some idea. As it happens you're probably correct that they don't know just yet. Administering it is a major challenge in itself, it would need a very specialist container and the precursors would possibly need to be mixed beforehand, requiring further specialist equipment and expert handling. The risks to the handler are also considerable, especially at the point of administering the agent. So how did they transport it, prepare it and administer it? Certainly not with stuff you can get at B&Q and not a job for amateurs.


They were created in Shikhany, Russia according to Vil Mirzayanov, one of the original creators - although other sites have been involved in their production and the production of precursors.

Yes, Iranian scientists - in conjunction with the OPCW - synthesised 5 Novichok agents on a micro-scale a few years ago. They already knew the structures from Mirzayanov, which would allow scientists to identify mass, IR/UV properties, nuclear magnetic resonance and other properties. In other words: Porton Down don't need a pre-existing physical sample to identify it. By taking fluid from the victim's spinal cords, together with skin and any other samples, and isolating the acetylcholinesterase enzyme to which the nerve agent bonds, they can identify the structure of the agent.

It's certainly not the case that any bedroom scientist can create Novichok. It would need an expert scientist with the correct specialist equipment, and the dangers would be enormous - the precursors required to mix and produce Novichok are in themselves mostly lethal (although less so) and illegal. Indeed, Andrei Zheleznyakov, another one of the original scientists, died after a miniscule amount leaked from a rubber tube.

So you don't think Putin is involved? He's the head of the Russian State with his fingers in every pie. It's highly unlikely anyone would launch an attack with such wide-reaching repercussions without his knowledge and blessing. For every pundit you've heard saying it isn't him, there are 20 saying it definitely is. It's also worth considering that beyond the political fall-out, the UN Chemical Weapons Convention has probably been breached.

The evidence is overwhelming. The target is an ex-Soviet paratrooper and GRU officer, convicted of spying for MI6 and sentenced to 13 years in Russia, later released as part of a spy swap, living in Salisbury and continuing to work with MI6. Many of his family have died in suspicious circumstances since he left Russia. The only nation to have produced a Novichok stockpile is Russia. Furthermore the Russian State has a track record of assassinating traitors - Litvinenko being the most famous case, which was also traced directly back to Moscow.

They're sending a number of messages: that traitors to the Motherland can expect a VERY nasty end regardless of 'deals', that Russia isn't scared of showing aggression and treading on Western toes, that they think Brexit UK is isolated and unlikely to receive much support (wrong), that they aren't to be messed with and are willing to use radioactive substances and illegal chemical weapons on foreign soil. A bullet or a knife or poison would be easier but wouldn't achieve all these aims.


Yes, it is. It's such an utterly ludicrous suggestion you get today's special picture.

Then illegal mass surveillance of the population by police; then illegal torture of prisoners; then illegal blacklisting of trades union members; then illegally providing personal information by such organisations to police on people who have committed no crimes; then illegal hacking of campaigners & journalists accounts by a secretive Scotland Yard unit; then illegal collaboration between security forces & terrorist organisations to have individuals murdered in Northern Ireland; then undercover police officers who encouraged illegal acts; then undercover police who infiltrated environmental groups & sired children with activists; the illegal murder & torture of unarmed Iraqis etc; are all undertaken with the full knowledge & approval of the Government. But then you knew all this anyway.

Quote ="Cronus" or have some idea.'" Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed. Quote ="Cronus"Yes, Iranian scientists - in conjunction with the OPCW - synthesised 5 Novichok agents on a micro-scale a few years ago.'" These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests. www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1

Quote ="Cronus" or have some idea.'" Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed. Quote ="Cronus"Yes, Iranian scientists - in conjunction with the OPCW - synthesised 5 Novichok agents on a micro-scale a few years ago.'" These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests. www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1

Thanks for your kind offer to climb on board jeezas journey to wipe out the Labour Party. However on this occasion I must respectfully decline. If I need to experience Marxist socialism abject failures I can visit Venezuela (starve to death) also
Cuba (people jailed for political opposition) not forgetting Russia a charming combination of Cuba and Venezuela all rolled together with a combination of poverty and a one party state. Not forgetting extreme violence visited on political opponents.
Airstrip one here we come.

Do us all a favour?
Take Cronus with you.

Unfortunately I can’t do that. Somebody has to point out the tripe that the metropolitan elite and liberal snowflakes are trying to inflict on the country.

Quote ="tigertot"Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed.'" Is that it? You cherry-pick those few words? Deary me. Standards are slipping. Quote These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests. www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1'" So the OPCW picked some random scientists in a bog-standard laboratory, not experts chemists in a specialised lab? Nothing in that link (which I've read before) says is was a standard lab. I guarantee, with the enormous danger involved in what they were doing (hence why the samples were only produced on a micro-level), it was a specialised lab. As for the rest, did you, at any point, engage your brain while reading my reply? Yes, the structures were out there. We know that. That doesn't mean anyone is going to breach the UN Chemical Weapons Convention and start producing it, just to attack a forgotten spy. Quote ="tigertot"Then illegal mass surveillance of the population by police; then illegal torture of prisoners; then illegal blacklisting of trades union members; then illegally providing personal information by such organisations to police on people who have committed no crimes; then illegal hacking of campaigners & journalists accounts by a secretive Scotland Yard unit; then illegal collaboration between security forces & terrorist organisations to have individuals murdered in Northern Ireland; then undercover police officers who encouraged illegal acts; then undercover police who infiltrated environmental groups & sired children with activists; the illegal murder & torture of unarmed Iraqis etc; are all undertaken with the full knowledge & approval of the Government. But then you knew all this anyway.'" All of which bears precisely zero relevance in this situation. Think means and motive and then start thinking seriously about the details. Your argument is based entirely on 'cos I plucked it out of thin air', in the face of overwhelming actual evidence. The day after the London Bridge attack I had to endure 2 Asian gentlemen in my gym discussing in very loud voices how it was all engineered by Theresa May to divert from the General Election, because a 'brother' would never do such a thing. You fit right in that bracket. In fact you probably agree with them.

Quote ="tigertot"Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed.'" Is that it? You cherry-pick those few words? Deary me. Standards are slipping. Quote These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests. www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1'" So the OPCW picked some random scientists in a bog-standard laboratory, not experts chemists in a specialised lab? Nothing in that link (which I've read before) says is was a standard lab. I guarantee, with the enormous danger involved in what they were doing (hence why the samples were only produced on a micro-level), it was a specialised lab. As for the rest, did you, at any point, engage your brain while reading my reply? Yes, the structures were out there. We know that. That doesn't mean anyone is going to breach the UN Chemical Weapons Convention and start producing it, just to attack a forgotten spy. Quote ="tigertot"Then illegal mass surveillance of the population by police; then illegal torture of prisoners; then illegal blacklisting of trades union members; then illegally providing personal information by such organisations to police on people who have committed no crimes; then illegal hacking of campaigners & journalists accounts by a secretive Scotland Yard unit; then illegal collaboration between security forces & terrorist organisations to have individuals murdered in Northern Ireland; then undercover police officers who encouraged illegal acts; then undercover police who infiltrated environmental groups & sired children with activists; the illegal murder & torture of unarmed Iraqis etc; are all undertaken with the full knowledge & approval of the Government. But then you knew all this anyway.'" All of which bears precisely zero relevance in this situation. Think means and motive and then start thinking seriously about the details. Your argument is based entirely on 'cos I plucked it out of thin air', in the face of overwhelming actual evidence. The day after the London Bridge attack I had to endure 2 Asian gentlemen in my gym discussing in very loud voices how it was all engineered by Theresa May to divert from the General Election, because a 'brother' would never do such a thing. You fit right in that bracket. In fact you probably agree with them.

Your few words are sufficient highlight your hypocrisy.



So there is overwhelming evidence then? Make your mind up.





Hypocrisy exposed so start to throw out the insults. Classic.

So tell me again how a British right-wing group were able to manufacture, handle, transport, mix and administer a Novichok agent and why they attacked a long-forgotten Russian? Any evidence would be good. You know, just a teeny bit. Evidence, not theories made-up in your head or read on some balmpot website.

Might as well tell me it was Mark Zuckerberg to divert from the Cambridge Analytica scandal.

Otherwise I refer you to my earlier reply, in which you might start to understand why the finger points directly at Russia. Lots of evidence and details, all conveniently posted in a single place for your enjoyment.

So here's a thing - entirely separate to any party political lines and with no commentary on how either side have responded to the issue - so I'll refrain from commenting on the Maybot, and you all refrain from the Comrade Corbyn retorts...

A super lethal, internationally prohibited nerve agent, so deadly that exposure to even a trace amount can be lethal, causing a dramatic, painful death - was deployed on the streets of Salisbury, and 2 people are critically ill as a result; none of the public, police, Dr's and nurses, or any bystanders or other people who came into contact with them has been affected - apart from one police officer, who has made a speedy and full recovery.

How come?

Because May and Trump need something to take the peoples minds off gun control and the brexit shambles. Step forward Russia. How very convienient

Regards

King James

I've seen reports of [url=http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/2018-03-13/total-of-38-people-treated-in-hospital-after-nerve-agent/up to 38 who required treatment[/url, including a [url=https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/03/22/second-salisbury-police-officer-treated-suspected-poisoningas/second police officer[/url. Fortunately it seems most displayed very minor symptoms and probably some none at all. I wouldn't say DS Nick Bailey recovered 'quickly' - he was hospitalised for almost 3 weeks and was classed as critical for some time. He may continue to be affected for a long time.

It now appears DS Bailey fell ill after visiting the Skripal home, and not from contact with them at the park bench as first thought. It's therefore likely they were poisoned at home and while that means no-one else was exposed to the moment of attack, it's possibly some of the agent may have left the house with them. It would also explain why the police have examined their route so closely.

Given the preferred method of application is aerosol or powder, their clothes could easily have been contaminated and therefore no chances can be taken, especially as Novichok appears designed to linger, unlike almost all other nerve gases which dissipate quickly. Novichok agents are heavier than air so would settle fairly quickly, reducing the chance of being inhaled. The main risk is from touching a contaminated area. That said, we're talking miniscule amounts so you would be incredibly unlucky to touch it. Novichok dissipates quickly with water, which is why much of Salisbury was hosed down.

Vladimir Uglev, one of the scientists who developed Novichek, became ill twice from contact with a trace amount. It is indeed a highly lethal substance but still requires a minimum amount and successful application to kill. It's not the case that any contact means death. DS Bailey appears to have had contact with a trace amount quite some time after the attack and was still severely affected.

As for 'second' responders, well, paramedics and indeed doctors and nurses (and police) wear gloves when handling patients these days, thus vastly reducing their chance of contamination.

On that point - Stephen Davis, a consultant in emergency medicine at the Salisbury NHS Foundation Trust, has written over the weekend:

"Further to your report (Poison exposure leaves almost 40 needing treatment) may I clarify that no patients have experienced symptoms of nerve agent poisoning in Salisbury and there have only ever been three patients with significant poisoning. Several people have attended the emergency department concerned that they may have been exposed. None has had symptoms of poisoning and none has needed treatment. Any blood tests performed have shown no abnormality. No member of the public has been contaminated by the agent involved."

It's either amazingly lucky - or something else.

Keep trying to divert attention from your embarrassing contradictions. Wait, are you Teresa May?

I find that odd given the reports of a second officer needing treatment for mild symptoms, although I did hear suggestions members of the public attended hospital mostly out of fear. Anyway, if that's the case then it's good news.

As I said in my other post, the suggestion is that the Skripols were poisoned at home given it appears this is where DS Bailey was also poisoned. If that is indeed the case, any of the substance that left the house with on their clothing or skin would probably be in trace amounts, and anyone else would be hugely unlucky to come into contact with it and even unluckier to become ill.

That said, even tiny amounts can cause some damage and for that reason the painstaking clean-up and decontamination continues.

Huge steps from a number of nations this afternoon with 16 countries evicting 106 diplomats. Of course several on here believe so many nations would take such strong action on the basis of 'no evidence' - especially those bordering Russia. The solidarity being shown is extraordinary and a huge surprise to the Russians.