When Scotland en masse rejected Labour that was the huge game changer.Now you feel a vote for Labour from the north of England is just a wasted vote.

I remember when people thought UKIP were going to take Tory votes. Didn't quite work out like that did it!

Err not quite correct the Tories are UKIP!

They have taken Tory votes.
However, due to having a mickey poor Labour party, they have taken a fair few more from Labour.
Corbyn "appeal" has made it too easy for them.
The irony of Labour supporters believing that a far right wing party is their best option is just scary.

What is a "Labour supporter"? I doubt whether any card carrying members are supporting the far right. Other people are simply voters who vote for the party which best expresses (honestly or otherwise) their own views. Labour no longer reflects the views of many people who voted for them in the past but maybe "a far right wing party" does.

I agree
Having said that "up north" most Labour voters would never vote Tory but, many are now happy to vote for something further away from their "ideal".
This shows just that Labour are completely out of touch.
They've handed Scotland over to The SNP and their traditional vote is being eroded by UKIP and they cant make any ground against a Tory party led by a "bag of wind".
May is full of empty words and has done nothing since taking the reins.

Worth "bumping" this one.
After hanging on in Stoke on Trent and losing to the Conservatives in Cumbria, Corbyn has to go.
Leicester City sacked their Championship winning manager due to fear of relegation but, Labour seem happy to go down without a fight.
Only Corbyn and his closest allies believe that he's any good, the rest of the population know that he's a lame duck and he must go now, to give Labour any chance of avoiding obliteration at the next election.

How bad does it need to get before the party realises that the guy will never, ever, make it to No 10 as leader.

Trouble is Corbyn is like a limpit and unlikely to be shifted. The party rules also stack the odds in favour of him staying while the Trot element dominate the membership.

Stoke proved that UKIP are pretty much finished thanks to the Tories adopting their policies. So much so it is the Tories and not UKIP that will threaten safe Labour seats.

Labour needs a new leader but I don’t know where they’re coming from. Not much talent on the front bench.

I think the big question for long time labour supporters is is there a credible alternative to vote for? Most of these are unlikely to vote for the tories which also rules out UKIP as a viable alternative. Lib Dems anyone? Personally I dont hold any malice towards the Lib Dems for not keeping their election promises in 2010 but a lot do. So where does that leave traditional Labour supporters?

Labour will, if it hasn't already happened, become a protest party, sniping at the ruling government.
Sadly, there is nowhere left for them to go.
Although Corbyn does appear to be a man of principle, if he ever wants the party to gain power, he will have to find some mass appeal, something that seems quite alien to him.

The non Trot element of Labour voters will either hold their collective noses and continue to vote Labour or simply stay at home. Either way with Corbyn as leader the party is doomed to be in perpetual opposition since it needs all its supporters behind it and a proportion of Tories to swing back as per 1997 to get back into power.

The only way that will happen will be with a charismatic new leader who can land some blows on the Tories and get some voters back from them. That won’t happen until after 2020. Labour will need to go through another 1983 and subsequent re-birth. A bit like the Tories in 1997-20010.

There is a need for a coherent opposition and the longer the Tories stay in power the better chance there is of that happening as the pendulum does tend to swing back as Governments become complacent after long periods of unchallenged power. In the meantime the Tories will clean up and UKIP will decline back into the swivel eyed borderline BNP territory as its raison detre has been realised.

Couldn't agree more.
The main concern in this scenario is that the Tories will end up with a huge majority at the next election, which will be a massive blow to the poorer paid and those in need.
The Tory ideal is to shrink the welfare state and allow people to keep a larger share of their earnings, which is great if you are well off but, not so good, if you fall on hard times.
Teresa May, talks about helping those in need and yet they (The Tories) are looking at abolishing PIP payments for disabled people and those with mental health issues.
Nobody should be in any doubt what their intentions are and whilst there will always be claimants of benefits who "dont need them", this is the second time in recent years that they have targeted those most in need of help.
It makes my blood boil and Corbyn is allowing them to get away with it, he should hang his head in shame and open his eyes to what is going on.
He needs to stop pretending that he is doing ok and that people are joining his "revolution" and realise that his support base, although very loyal and vocal, is never going to be big enough to do anything meaningful.

Talk of Labour being perpetual opposition is misguided. They seem wholly incapable of acting as an opposition. There is such a paucity of credible people in the PLP, of creativity, of intellectual ability and coherence it is simply shocking. They have no hope until they get people who can frame a coherent, sensible and credible policy agenda. This government could be torn to shreds and wholly undermined if they could think beyond the outdated, tired old scripts. Times are right for an eloquent leader with fire in his belly. The trouble is the majority of Labour MPs are PC clones who have no concept of fighting to build something rather than just petty sniping. They are an utter disgrace.

The last credible Labour leader was Tony Blair; can we just forget all that illegal war stuff and have him back?

And it all came from being too pally with a blood thirsty, war mongering US leader ??

Exactly. Take that away and he was a half decent leader.

Needs someone who can appeal to more than just a bunch of Trots that’s for sure. Blair crossed over hugely, albeit with the help of the Murdoch press. Corbyn’s too hopeless to get the support of the Mirror and Guardian.

Not sure if we’ve even heard of the leader who will turn the ship around. Kinnock did a lot of the heavy lifting after the shambles of 1983. Smith made Labour electable. Blair got them into power. It’s going to need a similar job this time. Current names that spring to mind aren’t up to it (Jarvis – bit of an empty vessel), Harman (tainted by association with past failure), Ummuna (lacks passion and apparently not interested).

One wonders if they’d be in this mess had David Milliband been elected leader rather than his brother. I suspect not. He certainly wouldn’t have changed the membership rules so the rent-a-trot mob could effectively take over.

He did indeed - he was able to advocate a form of socialism, without coming across like an overgrown student who has never quite escaped the idealism of the refectory. I'm a lifelong Labour supporter - but like many people, I found my socialist leanings tempered with age and experience and possibly self interest; Blair got that completely, and made Labour policies palatable and acceptable to a broad cross section of society - including the Murdoch media, as someone else has pointed out.

The current Labour leadership is an embarrassing joke; the Tories are ripe for being ripped to shreds right now, but their worst excesses continue unchecked, because the opposition is too busy chewing its own leg off. I've no doubt that Corbyn will step aside at some point soon - but it will take years for the Labour Party to recover to anything like an effective political force.

The main thing that Blair realised was that, your ideas and policy's are worthless, unless you are in power.
Unfortunately, Corbyn is too much of an idealist to realise this and too stubborn to adjust his policies to make them appeal to anyone outside his group of ultra left wing buddies.
Michael Foot was similar bur, even he got closer to number 10 than Corbyn ever will.
He (Corbyn) is a bright bloke but, cant/ doesnt want to change and whilst Labour may be closer to his personal ideal, whilst he is at the helm, the party is screwed.

UKIP tearing itself apart will help labour, I can see carswell going back to the conservatives after the abuse heaped on him by farrage. If brexit does not work out as planned (I suspect it won't ) then boris Johnson and gove will be jostling to take the prime ministers job.
So the spotlight will be on the conservatives for a change. Our cousins north of the border will insist on a new referendum, coupled with the antics of trump will make for a rocky few years. So the outcome for the Labour Party may change for the better .We live in interesting times. I should rephrase that for extremely dangerous times.

You're possibly right about the Tories heading for some choppy waters but, with Scotland ruled by the SNP, even a Tory "meltdown" wont bring Labour into power.
They (Labour) always needed their Scottish MP's to swing the balance of power and IF The Scot's were to go for Independence again, which may not happen with their economy and oil revenues not exactly well placed to help, Labour would wave good bye to running the country for the foreseeable future, probably not in my lifetime (and I think that I may have 35/40 years left).
Although radical thinking was required, the Corbyn model is doomed to fail.

Corbyn can't even make comment on the budget without notes, complete pr@

Hammond can't even deliver the budget without notes, complete prat.




I don't actually care who refers to notes, or even see an issue with it. Of all the things to discuss about the budget announcements and things to get annoyed by, Corbyn referring to notes is pretty much at the bottom of the list, in fact it shouldn't be on the list at all, but it's another (small) stick to beat him with I suppose.

So what if he needed notes? It's the budget. It's complicated and covers a huge variety of subjects. I doubt a single leader of the opposition has done his response without notes.

Far more important things to criticise him for than this.

Bravo on raising NI for the self employed! About time!

Regards

King James