Indeed, so if you had voted for that party in 2010 then you would truly be under the impression that there was to be no selling off of the NHS to private operators at all and that the organisation would be safe in that party's hands.

I do recall another party promising the abolition of student university tuition fees too, can't remember what happened to that party though.

This [urlhttp://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/nov/02/iain-duncan-smith-tories-useful-idiot[/url pretty much sums up IDS for me, along with Gove he is the patsy, the fall guy for the governing party, defending what is sometimes indefensible with what are sometimes outright lies, taking the flak for what were always going to be distasteful economic policies, they are not experts in their office and neither do they need to be, their job is simply to keep David Cameron and George Osborne in a job and untouched by criticism and in that they are doing a damn fine job, the last couple of paragraphs in that article say everything you need to know.

they proved they didn't know what they were doing when they announced the removal of the Harrier from the Navy and Air Force as well as are only aircraft carrier as a way of saving money.

Newsnight exposed him some 11 years ago about his lying about his qualifications on his CV and his employment. It just proves that leopards really do not change their spots.

It does seem to be quite endemic in the tory party

You know, I was going to make some remark about the planned replacement aircraft carriers and not havign any aircraft to place on them and so searched for an up to date story on their construction...

...and found this

[urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-24833555[/url

Very interesting and informative until you reach the very last couple of paragraphs and this one in particular...




And thats where you stop, and read it again, and sit and stare at the screen open-mouthed as you wonder what sort of fookwits we have in charge of our civil service when they "failed to factor in inflation AND VAT".

Failed to include VAT ?

WTF ?????????

Quote ="Hull White Star"All I can do is laugh at you You really have no idea at all. I know you haven't been around here for long (or have you?) but I shouldn't have to prove to them or you that I have had hip replacements, knee replacements, foot fusions, joint damage, etc etc, a letter from the top professor in the country (at Chapel Allerton in Leeds), my GP, physio, occupational health, podiatrists and radiographers, should be enough. Come back to me when you know what you are talking about, that goes for the ESA50 form you "have in front of you". I see you don't mention about picking up an empty cardboard box, nor lifting one arm to put something in your top pocket questions. I suspect you are a troll and a very bad one at that.'" Sorry, for the delay. Xmas and all that going on, so, what have I missed? Actually, you should have to prove you've had the procedures you claim, otherwise there'd be people claiming they'd had all sorts done and the authorities just accepting it as read. Lo and behold you do provide evidence from various medical experts. Why would I bring up the picking up of a box or the top pocket thing? You never asked me about those. So, what exactly is the problem with the question? Quote Can you pick up and move a large, light object like an empty cardboard box? No Yes It varies Use this space to tell us more about picking things up and moving them. Tell us why you might not be able to pick things up. If it varies tell us how.'" In fact, here's the form. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... esa-50.pdf This is your post from earlier in the thread. Quote How much pain did you say you were in on your ESA50 pre 2008 in the half a page box asking you to explain and which box did you tick to say if you could hold a pen in your ESA50 post 2010.'" Go and have a look at 5. Manual Dexterity (using your hands), there is indeed a "tick box", then right next to it, a lovely big box to explain further. Perhaps you've simply forgotten as you've got your money, no wonder you're laughing.

Quote ="Hull White Star"All I can do is laugh at you You really have no idea at all. I know you haven't been around here for long (or have you?) but I shouldn't have to prove to them or you that I have had hip replacements, knee replacements, foot fusions, joint damage, etc etc, a letter from the top professor in the country (at Chapel Allerton in Leeds), my GP, physio, occupational health, podiatrists and radiographers, should be enough. Come back to me when you know what you are talking about, that goes for the ESA50 form you "have in front of you". I see you don't mention about picking up an empty cardboard box, nor lifting one arm to put something in your top pocket questions. I suspect you are a troll and a very bad one at that.'" Sorry, for the delay. Xmas and all that going on, so, what have I missed? Actually, you should have to prove you've had the procedures you claim, otherwise there'd be people claiming they'd had all sorts done and the authorities just accepting it as read. Lo and behold you do provide evidence from various medical experts. Why would I bring up the picking up of a box or the top pocket thing? You never asked me about those. So, what exactly is the problem with the question? Quote Can you pick up and move a large, light object like an empty cardboard box? No Yes It varies Use this space to tell us more about picking things up and moving them. Tell us why you might not be able to pick things up. If it varies tell us how.'" In fact, here's the form. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... esa-50.pdf This is your post from earlier in the thread. Quote How much pain did you say you were in on your ESA50 pre 2008 in the half a page box asking you to explain and which box did you tick to say if you could hold a pen in your ESA50 post 2010.'" Go and have a look at 5. Manual Dexterity (using your hands), there is indeed a "tick box", then right next to it, a lovely big box to explain further. Perhaps you've simply forgotten as you've got your money, no wonder you're laughing.

I'm not missing any point, but you carry on patronising. Do I qualify as being unable to work as my condition, being alive, is terminal? Should we just make a law that companies aren't allowed to employ people with cancer in case they do die? What about non terminal HIV/Aids? MS? You know, just to be on the safe side?

From each manifesto, I won't say which, you can guess. And if you can spot the differences you win a shiny ha'penny.
1.


2.

3.


I like the last one best, very, very carefully mentioning staff co-ops, and in no way mentioning "independent" providers. Doesn't quite say private providers will be outlawed though. Just that they won't get the perceived favourable bias that they did under the Labour Party.

Manifestos are great reads, you have to really read every sentence, it's truly a testament to our population that each voter takes the time to read each one to make an informed decision.

Quote ="BobbyD"Sorry, for the delay. Xmas and all that going on, so, what have I missed? Actually, you should have to prove you've had the procedures you claim, otherwise there'd be people claiming they'd had all sorts done and the authorities just accepting it as read. Lo and behold you do provide evidence from various medical experts. Why would I bring up the picking up of a box or the top pocket thing? You never asked me about those. So, what exactly is the problem with the question? In fact, here's the form. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... esa-50.pdf This is your post from earlier in the thread. Go and have a look at 5. Manual Dexterity (using your hands), there is indeed a "tick box", then right next to it, a lovely big box to explain further. Perhaps you've simply forgotten as you've got your money, no wonder you're laughing.'" You can fill in the "explain further" box all you like, unless you know what turn of phrases they are looking for they will just ignore anything you put in there. And yes, I have my money, until June, when I have to go through the farce all over again even when the evidence suggests that nothing at all will have changed. I have RA which there is no cure for and it is a disease that only gets worse. Bit like when they are calling amputees back, just in case they have grown their limb back within the year. Like I said, come back to me when you can comment about it due to experience and not what you *think* you know about it.

Quote ="BobbyD"Sorry, for the delay. Xmas and all that going on, so, what have I missed? Actually, you should have to prove you've had the procedures you claim, otherwise there'd be people claiming they'd had all sorts done and the authorities just accepting it as read. Lo and behold you do provide evidence from various medical experts. Why would I bring up the picking up of a box or the top pocket thing? You never asked me about those. So, what exactly is the problem with the question? In fact, here's the form. https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... esa-50.pdf This is your post from earlier in the thread. Go and have a look at 5. Manual Dexterity (using your hands), there is indeed a "tick box", then right next to it, a lovely big box to explain further. Perhaps you've simply forgotten as you've got your money, no wonder you're laughing.'" You can fill in the "explain further" box all you like, unless you know what turn of phrases they are looking for they will just ignore anything you put in there. And yes, I have my money, until June, when I have to go through the farce all over again even when the evidence suggests that nothing at all will have changed. I have RA which there is no cure for and it is a disease that only gets worse. Bit like when they are calling amputees back, just in case they have grown their limb back within the year. Like I said, come back to me when you can comment about it due to experience and not what you *think* you know about it.

We get the point, you don't think that ANYONE is actually unfit to work therefore no form of support payment should be made to them, even those with less than twelve months to live with a degenerative condition should be exempt from working for money rather than just receive it from the state.

I don't think that you really believe that actually, you're just acting a tw*t because it makes you feel good on the internet.

I don't understand why anyone would want to allow people to claim benefits just on the say-so of those claimants. People lie. That is actually a fact. Benefits exist because those of us fortunate enough to be in work pay taxes. It is absolutely correct that anyone claiming a benefit - whatever the benefit may be - should provide the necessary evidence to support that claim. I have to do so whenever I claim jobseekers allowance (which at present I don't have to because at present I am in work). Why should a person claiming ESA not also have to provide evidence?

I have never said we shouldn't have to provide evidence. I am quite happy to do that. What I do say is that the evidence provided by GP's, Consultants and Specialists should be used as conclusive proof of illness/disability by Atos and the DWP instead of them going against specialist advice and finding ill people fit for work. I also don't think that evidence should have to be produced every 6-12 months when its a degenerative disease or an amputee for example. They are wasting your money by assessing these people in this time frame. But hey, what do I know

Most benefits aren't provided just because a claimant asks for them, even Child Allowance has to be accompanied by evidence that a child exists, claims for WTC and CTC have application forms which are at least a dozen pages long and ask for proof of right to claim which are individually checked (I've been checked) and disability/incapacity have always required proof from suitably qualified medical professionals and sometimes an interview with the Department providing the benefit (whatever name they were using for themselves at the time).

What is bizarre about the current situation is that you have a private business examining all medical claimants without reference to their medical notes or supporting evidence from their medical practitioners - take the example of the blind mental patient that I linked to two pages back - his ATOS assessment which concluded that he was fit for work and not entitled to housing benefit was carried out by a physiotherapist who had no experience of mental health issues or knowledge of his blindness, and why would a physio be expected to understand mental health problems, more importantly why would they be placed into a job that they have no qualifications for in the same way that you wouldn't call an ice cream van if your central heating boiler broke down ?

Quote ="JerryChicken"Most benefits aren't provided just because a claimant asks for them, even Child Allowance has to be accompanied by evidence that a child exists, claims for WTC and CTC have application forms which are at least a dozen pages long and ask for proof of right to claim which are individually checked (I've been checked) and disability/incapacity have always required proof from suitably qualified medical professionals and sometimes an interview with the Department providing the benefit (whatever name they were using for themselves at the time). What is bizarre about the current situation is that you have a private business examining all medical claimants without reference to their medical notes or supporting evidence from their medical practitioners - take the example of the blind mental patient that I linked to two pages back - his ATOS assessment which concluded that he was fit for work and not entitled to housing benefit was carried out by a physiotherapist who had no experience of mental health issues or knowledge of his blindness, and why would a physio be expected to understand mental health problems, more importantly why would they be placed into a job that they have no qualifications for in the same way that you wouldn't call an ice cream van if your central heating boiler broke down ?'" Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair

Quote ="JerryChicken"Most benefits aren't provided just because a claimant asks for them, even Child Allowance has to be accompanied by evidence that a child exists, claims for WTC and CTC have application forms which are at least a dozen pages long and ask for proof of right to claim which are individually checked (I've been checked) and disability/incapacity have always required proof from suitably qualified medical professionals and sometimes an interview with the Department providing the benefit (whatever name they were using for themselves at the time). What is bizarre about the current situation is that you have a private business examining all medical claimants without reference to their medical notes or supporting evidence from their medical practitioners - take the example of the blind mental patient that I linked to two pages back - his ATOS assessment which concluded that he was fit for work and not entitled to housing benefit was carried out by a physiotherapist who had no experience of mental health issues or knowledge of his blindness, and why would a physio be expected to understand mental health problems, more importantly why would they be placed into a job that they have no qualifications for in the same way that you wouldn't call an ice cream van if your central heating boiler broke down ?'" Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair

Quote ="Hull White Star"Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair'" This quote probably says it all ... Quote However, the DWP said it would appeal against the ruling, and stated it did not intend to halt the assessment process.'" The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.

Quote ="Hull White Star"Judge ruled mental health assesments were "unfair" by Atos in May: blacktrianglecampaign.org/2013/0 ... l-illness/ www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healt ... y-ill.html www.theguardian.com/society/2013 ... lth-unfair'" This quote probably says it all ... Quote However, the DWP said it would appeal against the ruling, and stated it did not intend to halt the assessment process.'" The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.

Quote ="JerryChicken"This quote probably says it all ... The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.'" I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17

Quote ="JerryChicken"This quote probably says it all ... The incident I linked to occurred in September '13 so its clear that even High Court Judges have no influence over the assessment process.'" I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17

Quote ="Hull White Star"I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17'" I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? How much public money have we paid them ?

Quote ="Hull White Star"I think because he was also blind/partially sighted, he would have had a HCP (Health Care Professional) ie the physio assess him on that. Even so, the fact the had a mental illness too should warrant a HCP who is trained in mental illness to assess him, which is, in Atos land is a "Mental Function Champion", I kid you not: www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/faq_view/17'" I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? How much public money have we paid them ?

Quote ="JerryChicken"I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? [uHow much public money have we paid them ?[/u'" Unfortunately because Atos are a private company you cannot put in for a FoI request. But below is one put into the DWP asking that question: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... o_taxpayer [iThe Department for Work and Pensions re-awarded Atos Origin IT Services Ltd, trading as Atos Healthcare, a new Contract to perform Medical Services on behalf of the Department from 1st September 2005. The total cost of these services amounts to approximately £801 million over a ten year period. This figure not only covers the total numbers of examinations undertaken over the full term of the contract, but also costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative costs, investment in new technology and other service improvements. The figure also covers salaries and expenses.[/i I'm assuming this amount doesn't cover appeals and tribunals which are paid for out of public money (and Atos gets the money even if the appeal/tribunal is overturned/sucessful, so it will be way in excess of the £801million quoted. And thats a 10 year contract, only until 2015. Considering Atos are one of the companies that have been brought in to assess DLA/PIP which will go way beyond 2015, I assume that figure will balloon again.

Quote ="JerryChicken"I think what is clear from the story is that none of this was in place prior to at least September '13. In December the coroner specifically blamed cuts to his benefit as a contributory element to the suicide and when the newspaper story was written (Dec) the statements from the housing association were that they would help anyone struggling to pay their rent - yet they had issued an eviction notice, to a man with a diagnosed mental health problem. The DWP when contacted in Dec said that he had an opportunity to appeal - he is fooking dead and they are being blamed by a coroner and all they can say is "he can appeal". But despite all this and despite the fact that they may now be appointing "Champions" for mental health issues the point still remains that until very, very recently it was considered to be perfectly acceptable to send an ice cream van out to assess your central heating boiler problems - how long have ASOS been doing the job, several years, and they have only just considered what sort of "experts" should be doing the assessments ? [uHow much public money have we paid them ?[/u'" Unfortunately because Atos are a private company you cannot put in for a FoI request. But below is one put into the DWP asking that question: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/ ... o_taxpayer [iThe Department for Work and Pensions re-awarded Atos Origin IT Services Ltd, trading as Atos Healthcare, a new Contract to perform Medical Services on behalf of the Department from 1st September 2005. The total cost of these services amounts to approximately £801 million over a ten year period. This figure not only covers the total numbers of examinations undertaken over the full term of the contract, but also costs relating to written and verbal medical advice, fixed overheads, administrative costs, investment in new technology and other service improvements. The figure also covers salaries and expenses.[/i I'm assuming this amount doesn't cover appeals and tribunals which are paid for out of public money (and Atos gets the money even if the appeal/tribunal is overturned/sucessful, so it will be way in excess of the £801million quoted. And thats a 10 year contract, only until 2015. Considering Atos are one of the companies that have been brought in to assess DLA/PIP which will go way beyond 2015, I assume that figure will balloon again.

Please point to anyone, either on here or even in the general population, who has advocated self-certification of claimants.

I used to work with a guy who was assessed (presumably by a Doctor?) as 60% disabled due to a back injury incurred in the Paras.
Now he was regularly reassessed, and guess what people?.....yep, the 60% was signed off every time, and he continued to receive a pension which reflected this.

Oddly enough, he played a better game of golf regularly than most people I know.....

So just how disabled do you have to be to get the pittance we get? Quadruple amputee in a vegetative state probably be passed as fit to work by you - well you [uare[/u a Doctor aren't you and you were at your colleagues assesments with him I presume?

All that proves is you know a lot of crap golfers

There is an unfortunate, but understandable attitude amongst many who are on benefits, in that they should be receiving much more than the system provides. They may well be occasions when this is justified, but I suspect no amount of money will compensate anyone on disability for the loss of their health.

...which isn't actually what most seriously ill (temporary or otherwise) and disabled people are asking for, I've yet to see a newspaper report where a person in any form of disability benefit is asking for compensation from government funds - not that such a thing exists anyway - and if the newspapers, especially the Murdoch Press haven't got around to inventing those stories yet then they must be far fetched indeed.