I get worked up, because as a father I do not like to see 100's of children killed by the IDF. I get worked up about this, because I do not like to see peoples homes being bulldozed around them. I get worked up, because I do not like the way the Israelis flout international law, steal land, brutalise and blockade. That's just the IDF I won't get onto the Ultra Orthodox mob and their antics.

Mugwamp at the end of the day the Israelis have the most powerful nation at their side vetoing and abstaining when it suits and always blaming the victim for being dispossessed bombed, starved and incarcerated. Add to this the very savvy media tactics and rhetoric the Israelis employ and it is no wonder the Israelis are never to blame.

Is it a coincidence that Netanyahu decides to take this action now? Israeli elections in January and the alleged non friendly Obama winning in the US.

Yes, your right-on sympathy for anyone who 'sticks it to the man' is well know and frequently displayed. Quite pathetic really.

Me, I'm on the 'side' of the vast majority of civilians on both sides who aren't interested in victory but just want a life free of suffering and sudden death. Sorry if that's not trendy enough for you.

Hamas were elected because the PLO were failing to [ideliver[/i on a two-state solution. Israel has no-one to blame for their rise to power but themselves.


Oops.

Like this you mean? I think I might want to fight too

Given your parameters, Israel should never have been granted legitimacy

And you accuse me of being right on.

Unfortunately Because the Israelis have never compromised and have continued blatant aggression and land grabbing against the Palestinians they have foirced them to fight.

Whilst the Israelis have had it their own way there has been no need for them to compromise.
Whilst they have had America supporting them militarily and politically they have had no need to compromise.

The Hamas strategy whether you agree with it or not, or think it will work is simple. They have not said they want to kill civillians they want the Israelis in Tel Aviv to live in fear knowing that can hit them with missiles at any time. They believe that will force the Israelis to compromise

I dont want to see civillians killed but i think losing a few hundred from the IDF might make the Israelis rethink their strategy a bit like they did the last time they invaded Lebanon.

Your right on approach of sitting on the fence does the victims in this no good at all. You just sit there and say how terrible it all is. Sometimes people have to fight and die to achieve what is right. Just like my Grandparents did to get the British out of Ireland.

amazing how the murdering palestinian scum get to fire hundreds of rockets into israel day after day with no retaliation from the IDF and there s no discussion on here, as soon as the IDF say right thats it time to give them some back everyone is up in arms about it in here,happens all the time.we ve discussed this in previous years when the same thing happened.out pouring of sympathy and support for the palestinian dead, but not a word about the jewish dead!!!!!!



evil jews
heroic palestinians

where are the arab countries amassing their forces to invade israel in defence and support of their fellow hard done to brothers!!!!
I think they are hated by other arab nations too.cant see any condemnation in here about the lack of support for their brothers!!

LONG LIVE ISRAEL.
RIP to the jewish dead.

anybody would fight back if they were pushed into todmorden

And there we have it - the source of the massive chips you carry on both shoulders.

Condemning both sides in a conflict isn't sitting on the fence BTW - it's being able to see the situation unfiltered through bias and inherited hatred. Something you are clearly incapable of.

Hamas are playing directly into the hands of the Israeli government. They have absolutely zero chance of a military victory against Israel and years of terrorist attacks have failed to do anything other than provide Israel with an excuse for it's continued aggression and failure to negotiate in good faith. It also ensures that no American president will be able to take action against Israel even if he should be so inclined. But you carry on cheering them on from the safety of your PC keyboard. It's not like you have to suffer any of the consequences, is it?

And there we have it.

If you were a pacifist or were arguing that from a religious point of view i could understand and credit your moral position.

But you are nothing but a political coward. Wanting to sit on the fence and stay in with everyone after all. What better position than to say it is terrible for both sides and give peace a chance.

So you equate the violence of the oppressor with the violence of the oppressed. Nothing but a political coward. That is why i side with the Palestinians and in a conflict i will support them because they are the oppressed, they are the victims and they need and deserve our support.

Sometimes you have to take sides. Sometimes you cannot equate both sides with the same moral position. Sometimes you have to fight for what you believe in and put your head above the parapet.




I was never a keyboard warrior the scars on my body and the stab wounds suggest i got off the fence and fought for what i believed in.

Israel has little future for the following reasons:

1. Poorer countries are getting richer. Israel is surrounded by larger, more populus countries that will get richer at some point. They will then be able to afford equivalent weapons and Israel will reap the backlash to its aggressive defensive strategy.

2. Its great protector, the US, will soon have little interest in the region and therefore Israel. I say that because the US is scheduled to become self-sufficient in energy in the next few years and indeed a net exporter. It will therefore have no real strategic interest in the Middle East and it will be China who will need the oil and so be the big power fiddling about in the region. So, unless Israel can convince China that it is their interests to look after it then it's finished. Incidentally, this shift will stuff the UK who seems to be exposed with its complete lack of energy policy. Currently it tags along with the USA to secure supplies. When the USA is no longer interested in the Middle East that will leave us even more exposed.

Agree to a point with no.1, totally disagree with no.2. If the US were worried about oil supplies then it would make more sense not to back Israel instead of antagonising oil exporting Arab countries. If your unlikely scenario of US energy self-sufficiency were to come true anytime soon then it actually makes it easier for the US to back Israel, not harder.

My scenario is not unlikely. It's based on an industry report reported in the press within the last week or so. In my opinion, support for Israel is primarily about keeping the region reasnoably stable. In fact, taking my hypothesis further the US in future may be more interested in destabilising the region in order to undermine Chinese interests in the region.

The report by the IEA states that if targets of increased efficiency in cars are met, that US energy demand should fall and might be nearly energy self-sufficient by 2035.
The US car sector are notoriously bad for fuel efficiency and unlikely to meet the targets.
I believe your hypothesis is flawed. As I said, if the US wanted to guarantee oil supplies they could more easily do so by backing Palestine instead of Israel. I think the US backing of Israel has sod all to do with oil and far more to do with the Jewish lobby in the US.

What an utter load of tripe. Are you some spotty teenager or something? Jeebus wept - I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

so you cannot argue with it just make insults. Go on sit on the fence and say isnt it all a tragedy whilst the Israelis continue their land grab of Palestinian land and impose a collective punishment on the Palestinians in Gaza.


Thank fook we did not have to rely on people like you in WW2

If you can't understand that fault doesnt alway lie with only one side, if you can't fathom that it is possible for both sides to be wrong, and both sides to be right, if you cant see that such an entrenched standpoint forces a violent conclusion then you are an idiot. I would rather be a political coward, able to see both sides of an argument, than an arrogant, violent, bully, so sure of their righteousness that they can't see anything but their own viewpoint.



It is possible, that what you believed in was wrong, it is possible that the belief you were fighting for was wrong. It is perfectly possible that the ideology you were trying to force on someone else, was wrong. It is perfectly possible, that from someone elses point of view, you were the violent aggressor.

There is and has to be violent conclusion because ONE side has refused to negotiate and compromise for the last 70 years. Look at the map posted by Codead on page 2 of this thread for the facts.

The Palestinians feel they have NO option, even if they lose. They have nothing really left to lose. Maybe the last ones do not want to wait until they are loaded on to the cattle trucks and deported to Lebanon and Jordan and Egypt. Maybe they want to go out with a fight.

In these circumstances seeing both sides and sitting on the fence is just allowing the Isreali's to get away with it.

You have to take a side or you are a political coward.

I would love to have seen you in the Warsaw ghetto or the Warsaw uprising saying, " now i can see both sides but should we not just stop the fighting because the civilians are getting caught up in it".


Go on you just sit there wringing your hands and shaking your head whilst the Palestinians get shafted again.

I can't argue with someone like you who appears to live in a fantasy world and is incapable of rational thought on this topic.

You do realise this isnt batman movie dont you? You may 6 years old and still think the world can be divided into goodies and baddies. Im not. I feel for you that you see the acceptance of nuance or the complexity of such an issue as cowardice, it must be horrible to live in a world so binary.

You'd think the Israelis would wise up and start bandying the [iinsurgent[/i word around a bit more often.

It's worked bloody wonders during the occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan.

I reckon we'll hear more of it soon. Recent statements from them make me think this might all be an opening gambit for a strike on Iran.

Bloody right too.
Mahmoud Ahmahinejad is a crazed lunatic who regularly bites the heads off jellybabies.
We'll all be a lot safer when he's dragged out of a concrete drainage pipe, and beaten to death, or alternatively, witness some mobile phone footage of a noose round his head.
Restorative justice [iis[/i the way forward after all.

Anyways, where's Tone when you need him?
Has he given up on his middle-east peace keeping envoyism?





You couldn't make it fooking up.

TBF he's done a cracking job. There must be at least, oh, well . . . shhit, let me think . . . there must be [ione[/i country [isomewhere[/i in the Middle East where he's envoyed peace? Hasn't he?