A significant impetus for the ending of NI terrorism came with the change in attitude of the US. I visited New York several times when collecting for 'Noraid' was seen as a jolly thing to do, and the terrorist acts in NI/UK as remote and part of some worthy cause backed up by jolly sing-songs (albeit either with murderous lyrics or bemoaning some British atrocity from years before).

After Oklahoma and the first attacks on the World Trade Centre attitudes changed considerably as the reality of what people were actually supporting - i.e. real people being blown to pieces and maimed - started to hit home. 911 killed such fundraising stone dead and forced US politicians to stop being mealy-mouthed about terorism in all its guises.

In any event, regardless of how odious an individual McGuinness or Adams may be, their role in enabling peace to hapen in NI has been huge. I'd far rather everyone buried the past - with as much gritting of teeth as is required - than have the previous 'situation' continue forever.

I agree. after 9/11 overt terrorism was an absolute no for the IRA (irrespective of the funding). That's what made the difference (even though the Good Friday agreement was signed). They are the same people with the same views it's just that they had to change from their preferred methods due to circumstances. Not people to ever be trusted.

Indeed, without the head-murderer agreeing that his organisation wouldn't murder any more, the murdering wouldn't stop.


Sorry, can't agree that McGuinness and Mandela were even similar.
Mandela was convicted of sabotage, he didn't randomly kill ordinary people and his struggle was against the apartheid regime to which the SA goverment were committed to continuing, whereas in NI, the deeply unjust electoral system was on its way out and Wilson was very sympathetic to achieving peace and equality.
These two situations were in no way comparable.

I bet Philip was told to be on his best behaviour.



What would have been some of the things he might have said?

'Nice to meet you Gerry.'

"You're Irish? We've got a hell of a driveway outside our house that could use some work"

'You should have really nailed that fooking bitch at Brighton Marty old boy. She thought she was the Queen of England.'

'Is it true what they say old fella. That Guinness makes you ?'

He scooted away pretty sharpish when McG tried to speak to him.
I do hope he's not still annoyed about a petty thing like his uncle being blown to bits.

I am not in favour of the monarchy and I can't ever remember feeling sympathetic to Philip before, but I did when I saw that.
Don't know how else he could have handled it.

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/may/17/monarchy.stephenbatesnobody above the law?[/url

If Lizzie had turned to her Lady in Waiting and asked for Pappa's old service revolver, before accurately shooting MacGuiness between the eyes, do we think there is the slightest chance of her appearing in the Old Bailey dock?

Possibly not, but it would probably have led to a constitutional crisis ultimately leading to the ending of constitutional monarchy and a republic taking its place.
I know to many that is almost the perfect definition of "2 birds with 1 stone" but I'm not sure it would be in the Queen's best interests and she doesn't appear particularly stupid to me.

No, but it's a lovely idea.

......Must say chaps, I'm loving the one-eyed, blinkered view of Irish history we've got on this thread.

To be fair, McGuiness has as much to be peeved about concerning recent history than the Queen or Prince Philip.....Don't forget that it was HER army that carried out innocent slaughter on Bloody Sunday....I don't think our boys were really heroes on that day, were they???

Despite what some of you think, I thought the actions of BOTH McGuiness and the Queen were commendable yesterday.....Whilst some of you seem to think the Queen should have had some murderous animosity towards McGuiness, I'll argue that he is equally as valid to feel the same.

Eh? Regina -v- Regina? How would that work then?

Don't think you could have The Crown vs The Crown in a court of Law.

I hope I never find myself "fighting" for a cause where I walk into someones house and shoot them infront of their kids while they beg for their lives. No matter what "side" I'm on.

I'm glad the terrorist scum have finally realised that they can actually achieve more by being part of the democratic process and I'm glad the UK government has realised treating Northern Irish Catholics like animals is wrong. It's a win-win.

Do I give a f*** about Martin McGuiness? No. A small man who crawled his way up the republican ladder over a pile of bodies (I really wouldn't want to argue with that little c*** about anything - even now). The Queen did what she's been trained for her whole life to do - shake hands and wave.

The Republican movement was moving trowards politics for a long time before these two events. The slogan the ballot box and the armalite was an indication of this. The election of Bobby Sands to parliament in 1981 was the catalyst for this change in policy. The fact that it took so long was due to two main reasons.
!/ The SF leadership knew they had to bring the majority of the provisionals with them otherwise there would have just been the same situation as the split between the Pira and Officials IRA in the 70s where the officials went political and everyone left them to join PIRA.

2/ it took a lot longer to convince the Loyalists to agree to power sharing
because they knew they would have to give up a lot more political and economic power than the nationalists.

Ha ha. The ANC were a ruthless organisation and Mandela was the head of it. Necklacing was a regular form of dealing with dubious Africans and it was lot less civilised than kneecapping.
Umkhonto we sizwe were not a small prayer meeting preaching non violence
Whether Mandela was direvctly involved in their activities is irrelevant he was the spokesman and head of a terrorist organisation no different to McGuinness.

The situation in NI is directly comparable to Apartheid except it was less overt and presented more subtley. The situation in NI was not just a bit of vote rigging and Gerrymandered boundaries. It stopped catholics getting middle to senior jobs in the civil service and local government, proper housing and acess to resources. You could not get a job in the biggest employers in NI at Shorts or Harland and Wolf. Less money was spent on infrastructure and education. Look at Coleraine university built in a protestant area rather than in NIs second city Derry so that it could be a protestant university etc etc.

And as for your argumenta bout Wilson etc it is rubbish NO British government at the time was prepared to take on the Loyalists hence the success of the UWC strike.

Dont start rewriting history juts to excuse British actions.

It is always easier to support freedom fighters when they are not fighting against your country etc.

Almost as amusing as the comparison between McGuiness and Mandela.


Really. How many members of McGuiness's family was she personally involved in killing?

I'm not arguing against the NI Catholic's grievances, I never have.
I do think that McGuinness's gangsters killing random innocents was wrong, totally wrong.

Nelson Mandela has never, ever been evidencially linked with necklacing, not least because he was in jail for 27 years.
Tutu actually risked his own life to save one victim.
Even Winnie Mandela (whom I loathed) only "appeared" to condone it (however, I'm not going to defend her, she had plenty to be ashamed of).
Necklacing was actually condemned by the ANC.
So, I'm sorry, I cannot accept your similarity between Mandela and McGuinness.

Kneecapping in NI was a routine punishment, not for being on the other side per se but as part of the IRAs gangsterism and power retention, rather like the Kray regime in the East End of London, whereas the (inexcusible) necklacing in SA was largely part of mob rule.

Either way, we can agree on the step in the right direction that the handshake represents.

of bombs in "Wimpy Bar" fast food outlets and supermarkets occurred during the late 1980s, killing and wounding many people. Wimpy were specifically targeted because of their perceived rigid enforcements of many Apartheid-era laws, including excluding people of colour from their restaurants. Several other bombings occurred, with smaller numbers of casualties.

The suggestion that there is no evidence to link Mandela to any killings and this makes him any better than McGuiness is laughable.

Show me any evidence that directly links McGuinness to any kilings. I know he was head of the IRA but Mandela was the head of the ANC .

They were both freedom fighters or terrorsits depending on your viewpoint.

The fact that one fought aginst whitey 3000 miles away and the other fought against the British on your doorstep is the only real difference.

Love how all you Plastic Paddys are forever chelping on about Bloody Sunday. If you are going to take part in a banned parade and finish off the day by lobbing bricks,nail and petrol bombs, and various missiles at armed soldiers, then you have to expect some consequences.Granted, you shouldn't really expect to be shot, after all, gratuitous slaughter of innocent civilians is supposed to the preserve of your bold freedom fighters!

The Paras and the Royal Anglians should have shown some restraint, despite the provocation and reports of Martin and his Thompson machine gun. Simply applying traditional NI methods, ie grab the nearest little scrot who has been throwing rocks or a petrol bomb, take him around the side of the Landie or Pig, and knock the crap out of him should have sufficed. Instant karma, and saves wasting lots of peoples time in paperwork, court appearances etc.

That said, the figures show for the Troubles, 363 killed by the British Military.....1016 by Protestant Paramilitaries......and 2060 by Republicans. I think we can allow the Brit Army a bit of leeway for having a bad day at the Londonderry office, way back then in 1972.

However, back to Martin. If I (and here I include that fine upstanding terrorist Gerry Adams) was on the IRA Army Council, only to be told that of the total number of catholics killed (1523) over 25% were by Republicans! You can see why the man is peeved. Even by bog trotting standards that is embarrassing, and is it any wonder he took himself, and Gerry off to Stormont?

And you have to give them credit for the excellent PR reinvention of themselves...

In one bound, Paramilitaries to Parliamentarian.

Most of my Irish mates back in the 80's wanted someone to take the North and sink it in the middle of the Atlantic - Orangemen, Republicans and all.