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| Quote ="Saddened!"Israel overreact, but Hamas are the aggressors, they are ones consistently breaching peach treaties and cease fires. '"
As opposed to say, Israel, who have just ignored a fair number of UN resolutions instead?
Both sides are as bad as each other. Politicians and/or terrorists, but its the innocent that suffer. |
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Hamas put their weapons in built up areas so when they fire at Israel they are fairly safe until the IDF launch weapons back at them and then civilians get caught in the crossfire. As Chris says above - both sides are as bad as each other.
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I often wonder how much less trouble in the world there would be if everyone suddenly realised that when you're dead, that's it, no heaven etc just end of innings. One (of innumerable) problems with conflicts is when many on one side actually want to ide as they are convinced they will be a martyr and hit the afterlife jackpot. If you could somehow remove that belief then you wouldn't stop conflict but you sure as hell would make a bloody great dent in it.
That said, I don't see how it can fairly be said the Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other; no doubt Hamas' suicidal tactics cynically factor in the martyrdom effect, and use the certainty of huge numbers of dead as a tool to both court world publicity and stir up feelings of muslims seeing innocent muslims killed. But the unfortunate residents of the Gaza strip are largely powerless, blockaded and under constant siege, up against a nuclear power with one of the most highly armed forces in the world. I see as much parity there as I see in civilian casulaties. Which is none, really.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I often wonder how much less trouble in the world there would be if everyone suddenly realised that when you're dead, that's it, no heaven etc just end of innings. One (of innumerable) problems with conflicts is when many on one side actually want to ide as they are convinced they will be a martyr and hit the afterlife jackpot. If you could somehow remove that belief then you wouldn't stop conflict but you sure as hell would make a bloody great dent in it.
That said, I don't see how it can fairly be said the Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other; no doubt Hamas' suicidal tactics cynically factor in the martyrdom effect, and use the certainty of huge numbers of dead as a tool to both court world publicity and stir up feelings of muslims seeing innocent muslims killed. But the unfortunate residents of the Gaza strip are largely powerless, blockaded and under constant siege, up against a nuclear power with one of the most highly armed forces in the world. I see as much parity there as I see in civilian casulaties. Which is none, really.'"
Seems a simple situation to me. The international community recognises Israel as a state. People (terrorists), whether you call them Hamas or whoever, attack them and Israel try to crush the attackers. The terrorists are, as I understand it, are funded by oil rich Arab states and that's why they are probably content to let innocent Palestinians get slaughtered. It's about time someone started dealing with the funders. |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
That said, I don't see how it can fairly be said the Israelis and the Palestinians are as bad as each other; no doubt Hamas' suicidal tactics cynically factor in the martyrdom effect, and use the certainty of huge numbers of dead as a tool to both court world publicity and stir up feelings of muslims seeing innocent muslims killed. But the unfortunate residents of the Gaza strip are largely powerless, blockaded and under constant siege, up against a nuclear power with one of the most highly armed forces in the world. I see as much parity there as I see in civilian casulaties. Which is none, really.'"
I think parity is a bit of a red herring really. In war no side aims for parity. I don’t think that this situation would be any better or more tolerable from either side had 1100 Israelis died as well. Nor do i think we would be seeing less death if the IDF had less advanced weapons.
Im also not really sure we can hold Israel responsible for the actions of the IDF, but not Gaza for the actions of Hamas.
I think that the vast majority of both sides would like peace and would be able to live with the concessions necessary to achieve that. Pride and politics will not allow their leaders to accomplish that. Both sides still think they can achieve peace by winning when in reality peace is winning. |
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I am with those above who pointed out the naivety of Durham Giant's comments.
On the news the other night there was VT evidence of a Hamas rocket being fired from a school. The Israeli's have asked that civilians leave northern Gaza. Those that have chosen to stay are being used as human shields and the media are lapping it up.
Of course war is terrible and innocents always suffer. But Israel has the right under international law to defend themselves when attacked. With their history it is understandable why they return fire with interest.
It is a big mess and it is most unlikely that there will be a peaceful solution. With the rest of the region either in or near a war zone I would not be surprised to see this latest clash develop and Israel send in their ground forces into Gaza and stay there.
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| Quote ="Dally"Seems a simple situation to me. The international community recognises Israel as a state. People (terrorists), whether you call them Hamas or whoever, attack them and Israel try to crush the attackers. The terrorists are, as I understand it, are funded by oil rich Arab states and that's why they are probably content to let innocent Palestinians get slaughtered. It's about time someone started dealing with the funders.'"
Do you mean those funders who are friends of the United States?  |
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| Quote ="Lovesauce"Do you mean those funders who are friends of the United States?
'"
If Iran and Qatar are friends of the US, yes. |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I don't disagree with much of your post but your post suggests that "The East" in general is expecting "The West" to solve the problem.
Why doesn't "The East" do something?
Has "The East" actually asked "the West" to intervene? What is the way to intervene which might stop the killing?
SNIP
'"
Welll Hamas are a terrorist organisation they cannot travel freely anywhere in the western world.
I feel i have evidenced significant examples of war crimes and " terrorism" by Israel.
Maybe if a few leaders in the west were to say that Benyamin Netanyahu Avigdor Lieberman and Benny Gantz were told they were not welcome in the west and could be arrested for poetential war crimes they might stop killing Palestinian kids  |
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"Welll Hamas are a terrorist organisation they cannot travel freely anywhere in the western world.
I feel i have evidenced significant examples of war crimes and " terrorism" by Israel.
Maybe if a few leaders in the west were to say that Benyamin Netanyahu Avigdor Lieberman and Benny Gantz were told they were not welcome in the west and could be arrested for poetential war crimes they might stop killing Palestinian kids
'"
Clearly that wouldn't work as Hamas has killed Israeli children despite not being welcome in the West.
According to the UN, since 2000, the ratio of civilian to soldier deaths are roughly similar on both sides.
Israeli deaths - 69% civilian, 31% IDF
Palestinian - 59% civilian, 41% engaged in hostilities.
They're both as bad as each other. They (leaderships & followers) both are intransigent and reliant on the conflict to bolster and maintain their own positions and strengths.
It needs a powerful outside organisation to broker a deal. The only option is the Americans as the UN is too chaotic and toothless.
But the American (and most in the world) political system makes it almost impossible (or at least very difficult) for a US President to broker a deal that simultaneously puts significant pressure on Israel whilst providing the legitimate safeguards they'd want. |
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| Quote ="Him"Clearly that wouldn't work as Hamas has killed Israeli children despite not being welcome in the West.
According to the UN, since 2000, the ratio of civilian to soldier deaths are roughly similar on both sides.
Israeli deaths - 69% civilian, 31% IDF
Palestinian - 59% civilian, 41% engaged in hostilities.
They're both as bad as each other. They (leaderships & followers) both are intransigent and reliant on the conflict to bolster and maintain their own positions and strengths.
It needs a powerful outside organisation to broker a deal. The only option is the Americans as the UN is too chaotic and toothless.
But the American (and most in the world) political system makes it almost impossible (or at least very difficult) for a US President to broker a deal that simultaneously puts significant pressure on Israel whilst providing the legitimate safeguards they'd want.'"
What is your source for those stats i cannot find them anywhere.
I would say that after 2005 those stats are completely wrong as Israel moved all of their citizens out of Gaza and built the walls all over the place. You also seem to be linking all the earlier incidents which did not involve Gaza at all such as bombings in jerusalem.
Since 2005 the death tolls have been significantly lopsided in respect of those who have died and those who who have been combatants or civilians.
None of this alters the fact that Hamas is still seen as the agressor and terrorist whilst Israel is the victim and the legitimate force. |
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I just realised those stats from the UN only went up to 2007.
But there are stats from BTSelem that show a similar rate both from 2000 to now and from more recent periods to now.
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| Quote ="Durham Giant"Welll Hamas are a terrorist organisation they cannot travel freely anywhere in the western world.'"
Quote ="yet in the same breath, Durham Giant"... Maybe if a few leaders in the west were to say that Benyamin Netanyahu Avigdor Lieberman and Benny Gantz were told they were not welcome in the west and could be arrested for poetential war crimes they might stop killing Palestinian kids
'"
So, removing the ability to "travel freely in the Western world" would be the thing that would stop the bombing. Like it has done with Hamas, you mean? |
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| Quote ="Chris28"As opposed to say, Israel, who have just ignored a fair number of UN resolutions instead?
Both sides are as bad as each other. Politicians and/or terrorists, but its the innocent that suffer.'"
Isreal have actually broken 65 UN resolutions since 1950 and faced no punishment
Iraq broke 2 and were bombed to oblivion.
But then I wouldnt expect Saddo to know this given he gets his info from wiki, Sky news and BBC news
#opsavegaza
#gazaunderattack
@yourAnonCentral |
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| Quote ="Lebron James"Isreal have actually broken 65 UN resolutions since 1950 and faced no punishment
Iraq broke 2 and were bombed to oblivion.
But then I wouldnt expect Saddo to know this given he gets his info from wiki, Sky news and BBC news
#opsavegaza
#gazaunderattack
@yourAnonCentral'"
I did say they were as bad as each other if you read it properly. Meanwhile, keep following Joey Barton on Twitter and favouriting all his tweets. |
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For three years we have witnessed genocide being committed on a vast scale in Syria. an estimated 140K dead, millions forced into refugee camps, civilian areas being deliberately targeted for attacks by chemical weapons and poisonous gases, and the spectacle of Sunni Muslins happily slaughtering their Shia brothers.
And yet, not one crocodile tear is shed by the Durham Giants of this world. Not one wee Syrian flag is waved in protest. Not the slightest squeak from that motley band of perpetually offended.
I wonder why. no really.....
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| Quote ="rumpelstiltskin"For three years we have witnessed genocide being committed on a vast scale in Syria. an estimated 140K dead, millions forced into refugee camps, civilian areas being deliberately targeted for attacks by chemical weapons and poisonous gases, and the spectacle of Sunni Muslins happily slaughtering their Shia brothers.
And yet, not one crocodile tear is shed by the Durham Giants of this world. Not one wee Syrian flag is waved in protest. Not the slightest squeak from that motley band of perpetually offended.
I wonder why. no really.....'"
Not just that but a much more powerful US, UK et al killing thousands of Iraqis when not even threatened by them. Then calling the military personnel "heroes." |
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| Quote ="Saddened!"I did say they were as bad as each other if you read it properly. Meanwhile, keep following Joey Barton on Twitter and favouriting all his tweets.'"
Really? Is that the best you've got? I follow Joey Barton? Laughable. But what I would expect from you
#gazaunderattack
@youranonnews
#tangodown
#opisreal |
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Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews |
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Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews | |
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Quote ="Lebron James"Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews'"
Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from? |
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Quote ="Lebron James"Israeli soldier boasts on social media about how many children he killed yesterday.
countercurrentnews.com/2014/07/i ... ign=buffer
meanwhile, fresh from condemning the Israel attack on a UN School, 'murica decides to restock Israel with Ammunition. The great american corporate war machine rolls on.
#gazaunderattack
#tangodown
@YourAnonNews'"
Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from? | |
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Quote ="Saddened!"Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from?'"
Before I answer your question, let me just ask you a quick question. How do you know Hamas fire rockets from their schools? In fact, I will answer that question for you. "Because the BBC/Sky reported it" (What the BBC and SKY havent reported is the fact that it has been proven the IDF have doctored photographs to justify bombing schools)
Did Hamas fire rockets from the beach, that led to Israeli gun boats slaughtering those young boys who were playing there?
Now, how do I know that Hamas dont fire rockets from schools? I dont. However, what I do know, is a turkish doctor I have known for over 7 years who has been in gaza the whole time and who is currently working along an absolute hero in Mads Gilbert. I speak to him as often as i can which is at the very least, every other day. I will take his word that Hamas do not fire rockets from schools or shelters over the lies of Israel. In fact, he was actually working at one of the hospitals recently bombed by Israel and has told me in 7 years he was worked in gaza, not once has any rocket been fired from that hospital.
What do you make of the UN, thats the United Nations, telling Israel not to bomb the UN school they bombed yesterday, 17 times. Yes, Israel were warned 17 times, but they still do it.
Here is a letter from foreign doctors working in Gaza
stopwar.org.uk/news/open-letter- ... 9ocv-NdX0c
So you tell me, who are the real terrorists here?
#gazaunderattack
@YourAnonNews |
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Quote ="Saddened!"Ba, lets all be sheep. The Israeli's are attacking children, ba, ba, ba. Interestingly, I have not heard that reported anywhere in the mainstream media, it doesn't look a very comprehensively researched article and there is no proof any of it is in any way genuine. Not saying it's not, the Israeli army are under severe pressure and one soldier acting in a mindless way wouldn't be a surprise, there have been similar examples of boasting servicemen in pretty much all conflicts that have been reported on in recent times.
Why don't you answer the question of why Hamas put their terrorists into schools to fire the rockets in the first place? Ultimately isn't the blood on their hands when the missile comes the other way and hits where they fired from?'"
Before I answer your question, let me just ask you a quick question. How do you know Hamas fire rockets from their schools? In fact, I will answer that question for you. "Because the BBC/Sky reported it" (What the BBC and SKY havent reported is the fact that it has been proven the IDF have doctored photographs to justify bombing schools)
Did Hamas fire rockets from the beach, that led to Israeli gun boats slaughtering those young boys who were playing there?
Now, how do I know that Hamas dont fire rockets from schools? I dont. However, what I do know, is a turkish doctor I have known for over 7 years who has been in gaza the whole time and who is currently working along an absolute hero in Mads Gilbert. I speak to him as often as i can which is at the very least, every other day. I will take his word that Hamas do not fire rockets from schools or shelters over the lies of Israel. In fact, he was actually working at one of the hospitals recently bombed by Israel and has told me in 7 years he was worked in gaza, not once has any rocket been fired from that hospital.
What do you make of the UN, thats the United Nations, telling Israel not to bomb the UN school they bombed yesterday, 17 times. Yes, Israel were warned 17 times, but they still do it.
Here is a letter from foreign doctors working in Gaza
stopwar.org.uk/news/open-letter- ... 9ocv-NdX0c
So you tell me, who are the real terrorists here?
#gazaunderattack
@YourAnonNews | |
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Whilst plenty of Israel's military actions deserve condemnation, that "article" about the Israeli soldier isn't as you've made out Lebron. It goes on to say it's likely not true.
He's a soldier in an engineering unit. He's not a sniper. There is no way he'd be using, or probably even able to use, that weapon.
Sounds like an idiot making things up on twitter to try and prove how much he hates the enemy.
So whilst his views are abhorrent, there is no evidence to show he killed 13 children and plenty of evidence to show he's a lying idiot who should be disciplined by the IDF.
You also can't take 1 person's idiocy and apply it to the whole organisation. It'd be like saying every British Army soldier is as cold-blooded/stupid as those who murdered a wounded Taliban fighter.
That kind of thinking ie all Israelis want to kill Palestinian children or conversely all Palestinians want to drive Israelis into the sea, is partly the entire problem in a nutshell. If there were a bit less of that kind of reactionary thinking and bit more of calmly dealing with the mess on both sides then there'd be a much better chance of peace.
The RL equivalent is that all Salford players are stupid as Gareth Hock.
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| Quote ="Him"Whilst plenty of Israel's military actions deserve condemnation, that "article" about the Israeli soldier isn't as you've made out Lebron. It goes on to say it's likely not true.
He's a soldier in an engineering unit. He's not a sniper. There is no way he'd be using, or probably even able to use, that weapon.
Sounds like an idiot making things up on twitter to try and prove how much he hates the enemy.
So whilst his views are abhorrent, there is no evidence to show he killed 13 children and plenty of evidence to show he's a lying idiot who should be disciplined by the IDF.
You also can't take 1 person's idiocy and apply it to the whole organisation. It'd be like saying every British Army soldier is as cold-blooded/stupid as those who murdered a wounded Taliban fighter.
That kind of thinking ie all Israelis want to kill Palestinian children or conversely all Palestinians want to drive Israelis into the sea, is partly the entire problem in a nutshell. If there were a bit less of that kind of reactionary thinking and bit more of calmly dealing with the mess on both sides then there'd be a much better chance of peace.
The RL equivalent is that all Salford players are stupid as Gareth Hock.'"
 Well said. |
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| Quote ="Lebron James"
Now, how do I know that Hamas dont fire rockets from schools? I dont. However, what I do know, is a turkish doctor I have known for over 7 years who has been in gaza the whole time and who is currently working along an absolute hero in Mads Gilbert. I speak to him as often as i can which is at the very least, every other day. I will take his word that Hamas do not fire rockets from schools or shelters over the lies of Israel. In fact, he was actually working at one of the hospitals recently bombed by Israel and has told me in 7 years he was worked in gaza, not once has any rocket been fired from that hospital.
What do you make of the UN, thats the United Nations, telling Israel not to bomb the UN school they bombed yesterday, 17 times. Yes, Israel were warned 17 times, but they still do it.'"
I hold no views on either side of the fence other than shake my head at the perpetual human response to want to protect territory from what they perceive as aliens, slightly simpler to understand when ours is an island nation, more difficult to comprehend when the land is partitioned by humans into seemingly random chunks.
However,
I also wonder why Hamas would want to fire a handful of rockets from within a school playground for the reason stated by the Israeli government that "it offers them protection" when in fact the rocket launching equipment that they are using is simple and portable, the very fact that we are to believe that they set up in a playground is proof of this - the truth is that you can launch your rocket from anywhere and then almost be gone by the time they land - why would you need to avail yourself of protection from retaliation when you aren't going to be there within a few minutes of arriving ? |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"I hold no views on either side of the fence other than shake my head at the perpetual human response to want to protect territory from what they perceive as aliens, slightly simpler to understand when ours is an island nation, more difficult to comprehend when the land is partitioned by humans into seemingly random chunks.
However,
I also wonder why Hamas would want to fire a handful of rockets from within a school playground for the reason stated by the Israeli government that "it offers them protection" when in fact the rocket launching equipment that they are using is simple and portable, the very fact that we are to believe that they set up in a playground is proof of this - the truth is that you can launch your rocket from anywhere and then almost be gone by the time they land - why would you need to avail yourself of protection from retaliation when you aren't going to be there within a few minutes of arriving ?'"
They are also storing mortars, rockets and guns in UN schools. This has been proven by both the Israeli's and the UN themselves. The UN are a mess, chaotic rabble that has no real control. The Hamas fighters are fighting their entire battle from residential areas. They store, use and move, all within the areas people live.
A mess in which both are as bad as each other and which needs to be sorted by the wider world. If only the major powers could get round a table and talk about it. |
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Well said.
