I have no idea how democratic the E.U. is, all I know is as a nation we've never had it so good.

Then to see Farage today gloating in the chamber made me feel more embarrassed to be English than I already do.

Funny though

All interesting stuff , looking forward to seeing how things pan out , generally it lands somewhere in the middle of both extremes

Hopefully future debates can be done in the nature of recent ones without the vitriol and insults seen pre vote

Time to walk the dog , one things for certain , be interesting to see how they pick the guests on question time this week

No, not funny. Humiliating. It was like having a petulant child "you're not laughing now" in a room full of adults. Like it or not, Farage is now seen as representative of the majority of Britons. That's shameful.

Isn't that what we're seeing with the EU members leaders in their response to us leaving , but with a full room of petulance ?

The thing about Nigel though is that unlike 99% of politicians , he does actually answer a question when asked , I cannot help but like him for that

Perhaps that's what was t the root of my vote , I just have had enough of politicians bull**** both here and from the EU

All the member states are. For now.

And tbf, while the EU systems are imperfect, the way the UK's upper house and head of state are selected, isn't democratic. And I still support the uk, if not necessarily those institutions.

Basically, given the choice between something imperfect and something ill-defined and barely thought through (or clearly defined, but by Mr Farage), I'll accept imperfection.

And democracy, is a means for obtaining good government or decision making, at least as much as it is an end in itself. I'd take a benevolent dictatorship over democratically elected 'evil' every time. Possibly over democratically elected incompetence - trite, I know, but I wouldn't be happy if Rovers fans selected the team by popular acclaim each week. Even this year.

I'm not bringing the UK into it as a comparison...I'm asking folks if they think the EU is a democracy not if it is more democratic than the UK systems in place.

WHY have two layers of nonsense the EU non democracy AND the UK non democracy?

We have kicked one to touch ... NOW is the time to work on our system.

Get rid of the House of Lords.
Get rid of the Queen or the easier solution when she pops her clogs end it all and become a Republic.
Proportional Representation to be brought in and do away with first past the post.

Personally although i don't support it as vociferously is give more power to the counties in a similar way the USA does to states.

A question specifically for you.

I understand what you were voting against, I think - what you regard as an undemocratic institution.

What, more specifically, were you voting for? What, for you, would be the desirable outcomes of Brexit?

Or was it [ipurely[/i the principle of democracy, irrespective of the practical consequences?

"was it purely the principle of democracy, irrespective of the practical consequences?"

Yes, unfortunately, this decision pained me, it genuinely was gut wretching and not easy...but i cant pee on the memory of so many people who have died for this, I'd rather pass on a poor democracy as a legacy than a rich dictatorship.

I apologise to all those this has had an effect on, but democracy has always and will always be sacrosanct to me.

If i had a child i would lay down my life for that child to live a free life of self determination.

You may not want to use the UK as a comparator, but I don't think it is an unreasonable way for people to illustrate their position.

Why have the EU? As a body for dealing with issues across the continent. Just as local, regional and national bodies do at different levels, right up to the UN.

Get rid of the House of Lords - I agree. But let's have an alternative - a lottery like we use for jury service, or a second elected chamber. As an alternative to first past the post, prop rep is a workable and clearly defined option.
Part of the reason the leave option was so unattractive to me was that no coherent alternative was presented. Or multiple mutually incompatible ones, depending on how you want to count it.
The EU and our political system generally have flaws. Big ones. But at least they are things. The Leave prospectus isn't even that. Unless it is Farage's version, which is a thing, just a rather ugly one IMO.

I assume we're now talking in generalities about standing up to something [ireally[/i bad and dictatorial?

If the EU was that bad and our democracy so undermined, we wouldn't have been able to have the referendum in the first place, and have had the result received by our neighbours with a phlegmatic 'p*** off then'.

I do respect your decision and reasoning, btw, although I disagree with you.

Yes, Nigel is a straight talking, honest politician, who never spins his own brand of bull**** to get you to believe what he wants you to believe...

But you know I'm going to have to ask about that pesky £350 million quid a week again don't you?

I never considered it as that , and would have preferred them to have been more honest on the subject , £180 million perhaps

But that was only 1 part of several issues for me

The EU has never had any pretense of being democratic, because it doesn't need to be, at least not fully. Many aspects of our lives are undemocratic. Our schools and police force are undemocratic, we don't get to vote on who teaches our kids or patrols our streets but nobody ever raises the issue of democracy when it comes to those things, and anyone doing so would probably be laughed at. The only difference with the EU is that they are perceived to be 'outsiders' and some faraway body rather than local people making the decisions. But there is no reason for the 'undemocratic' parts of the EU to be democratic, especially as most people never bothered to vote or pay any attention to the democratic part (the EU parliament). Saying that you're against the EU because of a lack of democracy isn't much more sensible than saying you're against hospitals or schools or your local gym.

Maybe he does & I understand your frustration regarding politicians & how they never give a straight answer, but I cannot understand how you could possibly like the bloke.

I'm a big historian & although ancient history is my bag, but the parallels between the fascist insurgence in Germany & what's happening now in Britain is scaring me.

You only have to look back at the old news reels to see the adoration heaped on Hitler by the populous to see how easy it is to manipulate people, yet you like Farage & find his crass comments in the E.U. chamber funny!

Tells you all you need to know about Starbug and his other little englanders. They've screwed the younger generation by swallowing the lies for the leave campaign. Funny how now the leave campaign are saying "there's no rush to leave, we need free trade and movement of individuals", we're not going to be given an "EU Lite" option!

We are in a right old pickle now.
I think it is clear now that although it looks like democracy, if the British people could vote again, the vote would be a resounding remain.
People are changing their minds in droves.

There is little will from politicians to drive this forward, since they sense that it is NOT the will of the people and it is NOT sensible.

I feel sick inside and blame myself.

Where is the evidence of these 'droves' of people changing their minds and that it would be a resounding victory for remain were we to get Referendum II.

You been consulting the bookies and pollsters who predicted a resounding remain victory first time around?

There is a general relisation that the leave vote was more of a protest against the Conservatives from the Labour heartlands and over 60's, Xenophobic and Racist.

I assume Hull European City of Culture 2017 is cancelled and we're giving the EU the money back, as well as all the other projects that have been funded by the EU?

Hull isn't and never was European City of Culture 2017. It is UK City of Culture 2017. However Hull KRs North Stand (the new one) was part funded by European funding.

With regards to the racist and Xenophobe comment. I don't know where the 60% came from but what I can say confidently is that all racists voted leave even if a large part who voted leave aren't racists.

Oh dear, here we go again with the racist and ageist slur at Brexit voters.

You may not agree with it, but Remainers need to start accept the result now. you lost the vote which we were all told many times to be once in a generation by all at the top. there is no going back. and the with all the party in fighting and crucial negotiations that will be going on for the foreseeable the country needs to get behind whoever is to lead us into our future, which will be out of the EU.

not an awful lot different between that and the latest laughable blustering from some European bureaucrats about scrapping English as one of the languages they will use in the EU in future.

schools - not happy with your kids education, then move your kids to a different school
hospitals - not happy with your medical treatment, go to a different hospital, or go private
police - we now have electable Police and Crime Commissioners who are responsible for local policing priorities. Anyway, I think there are enough issues in policing without politicising them too.

Apologies, thought Hull was European City of Culture, thanks for correcting me.

There are lots of things that have been, or continue to be, EU funded.

The remain vote wasn't lost, simply the leave campaign engaged in lies, and are now making more u turns than someone lost on a roundabout.

Not racist Xenophobes? www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/cri ... -1-7987145 www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/cri ... -1-7987511 Does Boris believe in Leave? www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/pol ... -1-7987734

Not racist Xenophobes? www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/cri ... -1-7987145 www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/cri ... -1-7987511 Does Boris believe in Leave? www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/pol ... -1-7987734