OK name me a country where Socialist principles dominate where the average prosperity of its population is better than those where Capitalism drives the agenda?

Can I have Social Democracy and use of median measures of prosperity?

Either you are being deliberately obtuse to again deflect but there was plenty in the press about a pandemic being the next great frontier - Gates has been talking about for years. So as clever a fellow as you think you are I would have thought taking all the evidence into account would lead you to a simple conclusion - if this happens, who is going to suffer - predominantly your customers. You being as clever as you think you are would have invested in PPE for when this might happen. Of course you wouldn't have done because that is not a good use of capital now is it. You expected the government to have warehouses full of this stuff just in case - so monies that could have been spent on hip replacements etc can't because its all tied up in PPE - come on get real.

In my life I have not experienced any lack of opportunity - I can from a back to back with an outside toilet in Bradford, I went to Wyke Manor - possibly the worst comprehensive in the Bradford area, I didn't go to university and I have made a pretty good fist life and there are many who have come from worst than me and have done far better than me - to say there is a lack of fairness/opportunity/equality is rubbish - life is what you make of it, I have found the harder I work the bigger the opportunity.

Your comment about profit is an interesting one - endless growth improves the overall standard of living of the citizens - it is no surprise that the overall living standard of the world's population has improved beyond all recognition since the start of the industrial revolution? If you look at all those "new countries" coming into the EU that need supporting they are all those that adopted a hard line socialist dogma.

You were lucky to have a back to back....There were a hundred and sixty of us living in a small shoebox in the middle of the road!

You are a very strange guy - hopefully you will be able to get the help you need when the mental health side of the NHS gets back into full swing

You were lucky, we could only dream of a shoebox!
There were 1000 of us and We had to live in a puddle in the gutter at the side of the road, we would have loved a shoebox!

And out of the millions who grew up in B2Bs hiw many made good?
And of the tens of thousands who grew up in mansions and attended private school and joined the old boys network, how many failed?

I bet there would be quite a disparative percentage of both.

No-one is asking for complete and utter socialism, people are asking for a fairer system and proper social and health care system to support it.

I would suggest a similar % made good of the total - depends on how you determine made good?

The NHS is the envy of the world - its free to anyone - do you think if you go into to A&E with a heart attack the richer man gets better treatment - we both know the answer?

Really?

There’s at very least a problem of perception then (personally, I think it is more than that, of course). According to a survey for they Social Mobility Commission, only a third of young people believe everyone in the UK has a fair chance to progress in life, and 44% of all respondents believed that where a person ends up in society is largely determined by their background (vs 35% who felt that everybody has a fair chance to ’get on’).

While I might not have been born into an economically or socially advantageous situation on a national level (it could have been much worse though), on a global level I definitely was. That gave me a much better chance than most people, so this isn’t about envy or regret. I just think we could theoretically do better and that’d benefit society as a whole... but those that benefit most from the inefficiencies of the current system get power as one of the benefits.

That third are the ones that will make it happen - if your beat before you start you have no chance of progress. I am interested in where you believe an opportunity has been denied to you because of your social status/upbringing?

I don't think Sal was expecting a reference to Monty Python.....

It's quite simple
Despite how many people "Want to Win" there can be only so many "Winners" (whatever that may be).
The traits that drive those winners are the traits that make/give them narcisitocal tendencies )and dilute to recent study, make them happier than caring/sharing/left namby pamby people).
Now I could wrap this traits up as a description but the top line is, those people dont like to share, they perceive that theyve worked hard (which they have) ergo everyone else hasnt.

Now ufotunatley IMO the opportunities to get into the positions of power/authority, the positions that lead to top jobs etc, come from the who you know not what you know circles.

And by definition if 90% of the wealth comes from 10% of the population, then the 10/20% of the "Top job/opportunities" will more often than not come from the 10% that are in the know to begin with.

This is completely hypothetical, but if we classed 30/40million people as currently working or in higher level education, of which 10% are classed as the ones with the most wealth etc and there are say 1million Opprotunites/top obs going, then do we think that those opportunities will go to the 30/40 million equally?
Or will the top 10% get first dibs?

I'm "lucky", not that I am extremely well off or anything, I've been employed since I was 16 and have in today's terms a very safe job and never really had to worry.
I came from a deprived area, but was lucky enough to have a mum and dad with their head screwed on, they had little money but they kept me on the straight and narrow.
But so did dozens of others from that area, and very few are in as lucky position as me and I am not naive enough to think that my luck was all down to hard work.
And when im talking lucky here, I'm not talking eton/oxford/Cambridge whichbwould lead to the top opportunities, I'm not talking CEO opportunities or Politics opportunity, I'm talking lucky to have a slightly above average job with a lifestyle to suit (which is what I want as I have no aspirations of a yacht or race horses).
The dozens of others who did have parents with headaches screwed on make do with below average jobs
This that didnt there are hundreds of, and I see the situations some are in day to day.
And I understand the comeback, they should work harder, they should do this or do that like I did.
But top line, I'm a foster parent, and 99% (and I'm tempted to say 100%) of the children that come our way, and they way of dozens of friends who do the same thing are that a lot of these children's lives are mapped out by the time theyve hit their teenage years.

In the last 10 years or so IMO the systems got worse, as austerity has kicked in, and social care networks have been eroded (sure start, mental health) etc there are more and more falling into the cracks.

The top 10% (and let's be honest here, its probably more the top 2% were talking about) will benok, have the means to get by, and if things go wrong theyll have contacts/networks etx to get back).
The bottom 20% dont.

Interesting question, but why me? It’s a society-level issue, and my life isn’t necessarily very generalizable.

I will definitely have a think about my disadvantages, and what might mitigate those when I have more time. But I’m also aware that I’ve had certain advantages in terms of being white and male and straight and able-bodied, among others, so I don’t want to be whiny when I’ve been lucky, or discuss inequality only in terms of where it has affected me.

And there’s the flip side of some people getting too much opportunity to society’s detriment.

No-one Expects a Monty Python Reference!

The only area where I have suffered is through my own inabilities - if you are bright enough you can be a brain surgeon - don't have to be rich, you can be a top lawyer - don't have to start off rich. I can't be a PL footballer - most of whom come from poor backgrounds and there are plenty of BAME playing in the PL - not because I didn't come from a rich background but because I have no ability at football etc.

Everybody has 99% of all opportunities - most simply can't see the opportunity and don't have the desire to take it.

I’m glad, genuinely, that you feel you have been able to fulfil your potential. However, just because barriers are not completely insurmountable and/or haven’t impacted us as individuals doesn’t mean they’re not real or problematic.

Brain surgeons and lawyers, absolutely you don’t have to start out in advantaged situation. Disproportionately they will, and to some degree that is inevitable, but it is a question of degree. Does the presence of black footballers in the PL mean that box is ticked, and we shouldn’t see the absence of openly gay male professional players as odd and troubling? It’s hardly like racism itself has ceased to be an issue at PL games is it?

Its how you deal with adversity that makes you as a person - we can all look good when the everything is going along without a hitch it is how you cope when its not where you learn the biggest lessons - if you can't deal with adversity surely that is a personal not a societal issue?

Racism still exists in Football mainly in London it seems - look how Sterling dealt with it? Openly gay footballer - tough one in any sporting environment - doesn't seem to be the case in ladies sport - which is equally odd unless the %s of gay ladies are high?

Success is, of course, a composite of the availability of opportunity and individuals’ willingness and ability to take opportunities. On the level of the individual, the individual and serendipity play a big role, as does society - it being big. On the level of society and our shared success, the serendipity evens out and one individual typically won’t make much difference - optimising and spreading opportunity is key to our success. That is as central to capitalism as it is socialism. Efforts to protect privilege are inefficient in any economic system.

Yes, people can and do overcome adversity. Everyone has to. But... you’re familiar with pricing models, yeah? You put up the price by 5% say, and demand drops a certain amount. 5% doesn’t seem like much, and if an individual wants the something enough they’ll sacrifice something else... and probably most individuals still buy. Each time the price or barrier is raised the number of people who drop out increases. More credit to those that keep going, fair enough, but this isn’t just or even primarily about personal kudos, this isn’t a proving ground or about looking good for the sake of it, it’s about allowing as many people to be as good as they can be for the benefit of all. With the help of a decent speech writer, I reckon I could earn a cheer with that from a good section of the audience at the Tory party conference.



You made a key point in an earlier, I think, about seeing opportunity - that resonated with me. I’ll come back to that, when I have some more time - for me that’s where change comes from.

Although theoretically true,this is an absolute myth.
There are exceptions to every rule but the chances of success in life if you are from a "poor" background, perhaps with only 1 parent and then throw in some ethnic diversity and the amount of grease on the pole increases exponentially.
The vast, vast majority of those who are most successful come from those who are dealt the strongest hand from birth.

The difference in going through the state education system, compared with being privately educated is another huge factor.

I believe that anyone can succeed given the right opportunities to do so but, those opportunities are somewhat harder to come by if you start too far down the shaft.

For some kids, even getting to school every day is an achievement

Bell curve theory of intelligence.

Ask Michael Gove about that one - he's a big fan.

I take your point but I don't agree with it - in any environment there is a pyramid structure - whether its a supermarket chain or a drug gang - there is only one person at the top and many more underneath. If you are born with higher intelligence you have a greater opportunity - that has nothing to do with wealth - in fact the opposite. State education against private will have an impact only because usually the parents are more engaged and for me that is what makes the difference the family environment - it is no surprise that kids that do well from more basic beginnings are those whose parents see the value in education and are both engaged and supportive. They also believe in opportunity - and supporting their children's hopes and aspirations. They are not beat before they start with all this only the toffs get on - its absolute rubbish.

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Very good point, very well made.

Enjoy the sunshine (safely and responsibly) friends and frenemies.