Completely unrelated, but interesting none the less.

Jimmy Saviles top floor "penthouse" apartment in Roundhay Park, Leeds was sold a couple of weeks ago, its always been generally accepted that this was one of the prime apartment locations in the city and of "millionaire" status although having seen it on the Theroux documentary you may be forgiven for thinking that it may have been of "millionaire" status in the 1970s but possibly not now.

Anyhoo, Radio Leeds have been doing the job on the sale trying to find out who bought it and for how much - it was finally knocked down at £250k (a pittance for its location) as it was "in need of some refurbishment", and they found out today who had purchased it - the next door neighbour - and they spoke to them today to find out what their plans were - they are going to demolish the apartment (its a top floor one so they can do that

) and rebuild another in a completely different design to expunge the memory of their neighbour ever having been there

I'm still waiting to know which [ivociferous minorities (of all types)[/i he's talking about.

that is pennies for that location!

Not being one to duck an awkward question (for example by saying the information is in an 'off-site' book), I'm sure it'll only be a matter of minutes before he appears with an answer.

It is truly the holy grail of the written word.

Hold on a minute!!!.............................Over to Dally, I think his stooges may have found it???

Abraham didn't sacrifice his son though. The point of that story was that Yahweh wanted to know that Abraham trusted him and would be prepared to make the ultimate sacrifice if necessary. Men and women have been or felt called upon to make such sacrifices throughout history, for causes of all kinds under various banners (religious or otherwise).

As for Jesus, who was an adult at the time of his death, the whole point of his existence was to (ultimately) be sacrificed for the greater good. A soldier going to war does so knowing that his or her sole purpose is to (potentially) be sacrificed for the greater good.

Dally? Any news?

So your kind and loving 'God' thought the best way to find out would be to inflict untold cruelty on a child? How benevolent of him. For clarity, the child is forced to walk for three days, carrying the wood upon which he will be sacrificed. He then arrives, with his father, at a mountain and Abraham takes the child to the top of it and ties him up. He raises his knife to kill him and then, at the last minute, 'God' steps in and stops the madness.

Can you even begin to imagine the mental anguish a child in such a situation would suffer? And all because your 'God' wanted to test someone's trust. This is not the act of a loving being.

Of course, all of the above is utterly irrelevant anyway - aren't we expected to believe that 'God' is omniscient? If 'God' knows everything there is to know about us, our innermost thoughts and feelings, why would he need to inflict suffering on a child in order to test someone's faith? There are only two conclusions that may be reached: 'God' is not omniscient as claimed, or he's an evil ba[ist[/iard who would cause unnecessary suffering when he already knows the outcome of his little 'test'.

I am well aware of this.

However, this means that the god in the story believed (presumably) that it was entirely acceptable to mentally and emotionally torture both a parent and a child.

And if you cannot see the difference between choosing to sacrifice oneself and sacrificing another without their consent, on the basis of one's religious beliefs, then it's not a very long way to the likes of the fundamentalist who blows up a plan or Tube train out of conviction.

Indeed, this an interesting point in the wider discussion.

If it is not acceptable to kill someone as a result of one's religious beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, why is acceptable to seek to interfere with someone else's life as a result of one's religious beliefs, no matter how sincerely held, and where is the tipping point in this question?



I am well aware of this.

However, the god of the [iBible[/i created everything and knows everything that has happened and everything will happen. Thus that god decided that he would create sin – and then (having already had one temper tantrum about his own creation, where he wiped out most of the world) decided that he would sacrifice his son/himself in order to give people a get-out clause for what he himself had created.



One could also cite the story of Job, who is apparently a good man who pleases God. So Satan (who was created by God) decides he'll try to tempt Job. But the only way to see if that'll really work is for God to remove his protection of Job, which he does. Satan wrecks havoc on Job himself, and on his family and servants.

In effect, God lets people be tortured and killed for the sake of a bet.

Of course, that's not how the story is spun these days. It's a test of faith etc. But the point remains – as it does with all these stories – that the heart of them is brutal and uncivilised and murderous and cruel. And thus we have a perfect example of how morality and ethics have changed down the centuries, and thank goodness.

But how does one solve the problem of a supposedly omniscient 'God' who [ineeds[/i to test a person's faith?

Well, there's that too – indeed theology is just one question after another.

The answer to that, in effect, is that the Abrahamic god is a rather jealous one – the [iBible[/i states it with exactly that word.

I was going to suggest that, here again, morality has shifted. But as [iDeuteronomy[/i 6:15 makes clear, "the Lord thy God is a jealous God". Yet it's a very long time since we considered jealousy to be a positive attribute. So it's an example of how morality has not just shifted in the last 50 or so years.

But it also raises a different point: if we see jealousy as negative, and God is a jealous God, why do people choose to worship a god who behaves in a way that they would probably not consider acceptable in one of the fellow human beings?

Because God is jealous in terms of adoration? In other words, humanity need to put God first in order to fulfilled?

I could [ialmost[/i understand him being jealous if he had read Abraham's mind and found that he was coveting another God's ass, or if Abraham had said 'screw you, you evil sh*t' when God had asked him to butcher his son.

What can't logically be explained is why, if 'God' is capable of knowing what everyone on the planet is thinking/feeling at any given moment (and what they will think/feel in the future), he would need to test a person's faith at all.

Which would leave us with God deciding that – but then creating humanity to be otherwise.

Cool, Dally's back. Have you an answer to El B's question yet, or are you still avoiding it?

And then punishing mankind because he's created them otherwise.

Well indeed.

So for instance, if I am, indeed, "working for Satan", then that's only because, when he created everything, God decided that that would happen.

Quote ="Rock God X"And then punishing mankind because he's created them otherwise.'" God predestined some for election, and some for destruction. He did this by deciding before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Why did he do this? www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html

Quote ="Rock God X"And then punishing mankind because he's created them otherwise.'" God predestined some for election, and some for destruction. He did this by deciding before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Why did he do this? www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html

Quote ="kirkstaller"God predestined some for election, and some for destruction. He did this by deciding before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Why did he do this? www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html'" Thank you for agreeing that there no such thing as 'choice' within the Christian religion. And obviously also for admitting that you worship a figure that, even by your own admission, is a torturing, murdering bully. Because one of the few things we have is the knowledge that, even if the god of the [iBible[/i does exist, then his very nature, according to that same book, is not nice, is not civilised, is not moral, is not humane. So go for it: worship an (idea of an) utterly immoral god if you want. That's your choice and that's your right and that's fine. But even setting aside reality, please stop trying to pretend that all of the things that your god has okayed are, actually, okay. Unless you're a closet Jimmy Saville, of course.

Quote ="kirkstaller"God predestined some for election, and some for destruction. He did this by deciding before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Why did he do this? www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html'" Thank you for agreeing that there no such thing as 'choice' within the Christian religion. And obviously also for admitting that you worship a figure that, even by your own admission, is a torturing, murdering bully. Because one of the few things we have is the knowledge that, even if the god of the [iBible[/i does exist, then his very nature, according to that same book, is not nice, is not civilised, is not moral, is not humane. So go for it: worship an (idea of an) utterly immoral god if you want. That's your choice and that's your right and that's fine. But even setting aside reality, please stop trying to pretend that all of the things that your god has okayed are, actually, okay. Unless you're a closet Jimmy Saville, of course.

Nope, still no examples of these many minorities who he reckons are degrading our morals by being so "vociferous".

It's baffling, isn't it? I mean, you'd think that anyone who would make such a statement would be prepared to back it up with a few examples, wouldn't you?

Quote ="kirkstaller" Quote ="Rock God X"And then punishing mankind because he's created them otherwise.'" God predestined some for election, and some for destruction. He did this by deciding before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Why did he do this? www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html'" Which, if it is true, goes to show that 'God' was merely torturing Abraham and his son for his own amusement. Which makes 'God' a massive bellend. Oh, and, I don't wish to read your ty religious website, thanks.

Quote ="kirkstaller" Quote ="Rock God X"And then punishing mankind because he's created them otherwise.'" God predestined some for election, and some for destruction. He did this by deciding before the creation of the world who would accept him and who would not. Why did he do this? www.gotquestions.org/if-God-knew.html'" Which, if it is true, goes to show that 'God' was merely torturing Abraham and his son for his own amusement. Which makes 'God' a massive bellend. Oh, and, I don't wish to read your ty religious website, thanks.

You assume it is for God's own amusement, but actually we don't know why he chose to do this. I suspect it was for Abraham's own spiritual benefit.



It's actually quite a good website at answering common theological questions in plain English. It's much more accessible than a lot of sites. Certainly worth a look, even if you're an accomplished atheist.

Oh, ffs, you must be a troll. No one is actually that stupid or unfeeling.



I'll pass, thanks. I've seen enough half-witted sh/t on here, without going elsewhere for more.