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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Kenny Dalglish MBE. Ian Rush MBE. Steven Gerrard MBE. Bob Paisley OBE. Bill Shankly OBE.
Sir Matt Busby. Sir Alex Ferguson. Ryan Giggs OBE. David Beckham OBE.
Do you get the feeling that either there are some Man United supporters in the machinery that gives out honours, or are Man United simply better at asking for them?'"
Or is it that the attitude to handing out honours for sporting achievements is different now than it was previously and that, whether we like it or not, coincides with a different era in terms of footballing success?
The one United honour you've cited from an earlier era is Busby, who was knighted after the European Cup win that was after Munich – a link, not least in terms of popular emotion. | | |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"I don't agree with the honours system (as it stands) at all, so I wouldn't call anyone 'Sir xxx' whether I was meeting them for the first time or not. Incidentally, I wouldn't call my bird's dad 'Mr xxx' either. One can be polite without being deferential. '"
Except that you don't explain how, in your example, you achieve this "polite without deferential" trick. How would that first conversation go, then, so as not to offend your personal rules against deference"? Let's call her dad Wayne Smith, but all his mates call him Wazza, and she calls him "dad". What is your opening line, then?
I think the concept of being deferential is one which has been largely lost as politeness becomes increasingly a thing of the past, and selfishness and thoughtlessness increase. One well-known example of this is younger people simply not understanding how bloody rude and offensive it can be for, say, a nurse in hospital to address an eldery patient she has never met before by his or her first name. The elderly patient is from a different era, may be quite upset and feel disrespected by being called "Elsie" or whatever by someone they don't know. As ever, it just needs a little thought and consideration for the person you're talking to's feelings, and a little less on your personal "principles".
The pretty easy answer is to be polite and use the formal title before you find out what they prefer you to use, and I see nothing problematic about doing that.
Quote ="Rock God X"I'd say that would depend on what the protocol is for reporters interviewing football managers. If it would be acceptable for him to call David Moyes 'David' or Steve Bruce 'Steve', then there's no reason he shouldn't call Alex Ferguson 'Alex'. No person suddenly becomes more deserving of respect than another because they've been handed some arbitrary title by the government/head of state.'"
"acceptable" to whom? This is a thing just between the two individuals. Disagree that the relevant thing is "protocol", this is all about personal relationships which have to be built. If you were a newbie reporter not personally known to these managers then IMHO pitching in calling them by first names makes you a plank, and comes across as a desperate effort to imply they are your mates, and big yourself up to the audience. Protocol would be more applicable to formal situations, like standing in a line to meet the Queen, when clearly you're never likely to become bessie mates and probably will never speak again.
You are also introducing "more deserving" of respect, which I'm not sure was the discussion. But in terms of respect, certainly not every person on the planet is equally deserving of my "respect", in the sense under discussion. It also seems obvious to me that Sir Alex Ferguson (or whoever) does not suddenly become "more" deserving of respect the second he is knighted, that person has earned the level of respect you afford them, assuming of course you knew who they were in the first place. It's not the paper title, it's the things achieved, for which it was awarded. | | | |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Except that you don't explain how, in your example, you achieve this "polite without deferential" trick. How would that first conversation go, then, so as not to offend your personal rules against deference"? Let's call her dad Wayne Smith, but all his mates call him Wazza, and she calls him "dad". What is your opening line, then?'"
For a start, I assume that my girlfriend would introduce him along the lines of:
"This is my dad, Wayne."
Even if that wasn't the case and she omitted his name, I would smile (not in an "I'm lng your daughter" sort of way), extend my hand and say,
"Hello, Wayne, nice to meet you."
If you think that is impolite, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't see how it could be further away from impolite.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I think the concept of being deferential is one which has been largely lost as politeness becomes increasingly a thing of the past, and selfishness and thoughtlessness increase. One well-known example of this is younger people simply not understanding how bloody rude and offensive it can be for, say, a nurse in hospital to address an eldery patient she has never met before by his or her first name. The elderly patient is from a different era, may be quite upset and feel disrespected by being called "Elsie" or whatever by someone they don't know. As ever, it just needs a little thought and consideration for the person you're talking to's feelings, and a little less on your personal "principles".
The pretty easy answer is to be polite and use the formal title before you find out what they prefer you to use, and I see nothing problematic about doing that.
'"
Well, for a start, there's a big difference between a work and a social setting. I would call [iany[/i client (or patient, if I was in that profession), regardless of age, Mr or Mrs whatever until invited to do otherwise. But in a social setting, I'd be more likely to behave in the manner I have described above.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark""acceptable" to whom? This is a thing just between the two individuals. Disagree that the relevant thing is "protocol", this is all about personal relationships which have to be built.'"
At a press conference, do the reporters say 'David' or 'Steve' when they're asking a question, or do they say 'Mr Moyes' and 'Mr Bruce'? If it's the former (I genuinely don't know), then there's no reason on Earth for them to have to call Fergie 'Sir Alex'.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"If you were a newbie reporter not personally known to these managers then IMHO pitching in calling them by first names makes you a plank, and comes across as a desperate effort to imply they are your mates, and big yourself up to the audience.'"
I don't think so, if everyone else in the press conference is using first names. It's not like they'd be calling him 'Dave' or 'Moyesey' (or whatever). You'd come across as a bigger plank not following what everyone else was doing. The other issue is that respect should be afforded both ways. If David Moyes can expect a 'Mr Moyes' until he says otherwise, then Bob Carolgees of the Salford Echo can expect a 'Mr Carolgees'.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
You are also introducing "more deserving" of respect, which I'm not sure was the discussion. But in terms of respect, certainly not every person on the planet is equally deserving of my "respect", in the sense under discussion. It also seems obvious to me that Sir Alex Ferguson (or whoever) does not suddenly become "more" deserving of respect the second he is knighted, that person has earned the level of respect you afford them, assuming of course you knew who they were in the first place. It's not the paper title, it's the things achieved, for which it was awarded.'"
But there are people out there who have achieved just as much in their particular field (which is probably a lot less glamorous) who don't have the prestige of an inflated title. Why should a man who has made a career out of shltty electronics get a 'Sir Alan', whilst the nurse who has provided palliative care to countless patients gets a plain old 'Ethel'? | | |
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Even worse, he's Lord Sugar now.
Don't get me started on Lord Archer, how on earth did he a) deserve a knighthood, b) deserve ennoblement and c) keep his title despite his despicable acts?
The French sorted a lot of the politeness bit of titles back in the revolution, when Monsieur (my lord) became the default title for all men.
Would I greet a bishop as "Your Grace"?
Nope.
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"Even worse, he's Lord Sugar now.'"
He's a Baron.
I think it was a mix up. The Govt were on a health kick, suggested a Bar on Sugar and somehow that got messed up in a Governmental edition of Chinese whispers and Sugar ended up in the House of Lords as a result. | | | |
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| Quote ="Mintball"Or is it that the attitude to handing out honours for sporting achievements is different now than it was previously and that, whether we like it or not, coincides with a different era in terms of footballing success?
The one United honour you've cited from an earlier era is Busby, who was knighted after the European Cup win that was after Munich – a link, not least in terms of popular emotion.'"
Alf Ramsey wins the World Cup in 66. Gets knighted in 66.
Jock Stein wins the European Cup in 1967. Gets a CBE in 1970
Matt Busby wins the EC in 68. Gets Knighted in 68
John Barnes wins the league with Liverpool in 1998. Gets an MBE in 1998.
Bryan Robson gets the OBE in 1990 when he had 2 FA Cups in his cabinet.
There just seems to be a disparity with the honours that are quickly thrown out to Manchester United managers when they win the European Cup which other managers haven't even received after winning the EC two or three times.
Personally I think the honours system is a load of BS anyway. I think both Busby and Fergie deserve their knighthoods (although I disagree strongly with Fergie getting it straight away in 99). But seeing lightweights like Brooking and Bobby Robson receive knighthoods when giants like Shankly, Paisley and Stein receive lesser awards shows what a nonsense the system is.
Paul Elliot, Ron Greenwood and Craig Brown are CBE's.  | | |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"Kenny Dalglish MBE. Ian Rush MBE. Steven Gerrard MBE. Bob Paisley OBE. Bill Shankly OBE.
Sir Matt Busby. Sir Alex Ferguson. Ryan Giggs OBE. David Beckham OBE.
Do you get the feeling that either there are some Man United supporters in the machinery that gives out honours, or are Man United simply better at asking for them?'"
It think you'd have better luck arguing that there was a West Ham bias...
Mind to get an honour you need to be British(ish) | | |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"For a start, I assume that my girlfriend would introduce him along the lines of:
"This is my dad, Wayne."
Even if that wasn't the case and she omitted his name, I would smile (not in an "I'm lng your daughter" sort of way), '"
 ..
but it could be hard ..
Quote ="Rock God X"...extend my hand and say,
"Hello, Wayne, nice to meet you."
If you think that is impolite, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't see how it could be further away from impolite.'"
I think it has a fair chance of being [iconsidered[/i impolite by Wayne, and that's my point. Wayne should be the one who gives you the nod to address him informally.
Quote ="Rock God X"Well, for a start, there's a big difference between a work and a social setting. I would call [iany[/i client (or patient, if I was in that profession), regardless of age, Mr or Mrs whatever until invited to do otherwise. But in a social setting, I'd be more likely to behave in the manner I have described above. '"
Sadly though as I mentioned many doctors, nurses etc., don't. Also, meeting Wayne isn't exactly a "social setting", it's more on the lines of a formal setting. If it was me, I'd tend to get in first with "Call me Ferocious", but if you presumed then I'd consider you presumptuous. But as you obviously wouldn't care, we'll leave that one.
Quote ="Rock God X"At a press conference, do the reporters say 'David' or 'Steve' when they're asking a question, or do they say 'Mr Moyes' and 'Mr Bruce'? If it's the former (I genuinely don't know), then there's no reason on Earth for them to have to call Fergie 'Sir Alex'.
I don't think so, if everyone else in the press conference is using first names. It's not like they'd be calling him 'Dave' or 'Moyesey' (or whatever). You'd come across as a bigger plank not following what everyone else was doing. The other issue is that respect should be afforded both ways. If David Moyes can expect a 'Mr Moyes' until he says otherwise, then Bob Carolgees of the Salford Echo can expect a 'Mr Carolgees'. '"
No, I think I got this one 100% right. And unless Sir Alex, or whoever, actually KNEW the reporter (and they obviously get to know them) they would not be likely to use their name at all.
Quote ="Rock God X"But there are people out there who have achieved just as much in their particular field (which is probably a lot less glamorous) who don't have the prestige of an inflated title. Why should a man who has made a career out of shltty electronics get a 'Sir Alan', whilst the nurse who has provided palliative care to countless patients gets a plain old 'Ethel'?'"
He shouldn't. Lord Sugar would be correct. "Alan" would be rude. You don't know him.
She shouldn't. It would (most likely) be "Mrs ...Whatever". Or "Nurse.. Whatever". Or just "Nurse". "Ethel" would be rude. You don't know her. | | | |
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| Quote ="Big Graeme"It think you'd have better luck arguing that there was a West Ham bias...
Mind to get an honour you need to be British(ish)'"
They still give honours to foreigners. Wenger, Zola, Gerrard Houllier have received honours. Pele received a knighthood, he just cannot use the title Sir.
West Ham received an abundance of honours because of the world cup winners. Can't argue with that.
Greenwood received his because he managed England. Trevor Brooking, IMO, because he's a mediocre FA man and the FA are the main body who will advise on possible recipients. | | |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"icon_lol.gif ..
but it could be hard ..
I think it has a fair chance of being [iconsidered[/i impolite by Wayne, and that's my point. Wayne should be the one who gives you the nod to address him informally.'"
But unless Wayne is referring to me as 'Mr God', he has no right to expect me to address him as Mr Smith. Just because I happen to be tupping his daughter doesn't mean I ought to behave deferentially towards him. And if he considers a smile, a handshake and a 'nice to meet you' impolite just because I use his first name, he's not the sort of person whose opinion of me I'd particularly care about.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Sadly though as I mentioned many doctors, nurses etc., don't. Also, meeting Wayne isn't exactly a "social setting", it's more on the lines of a formal setting. '"
I disagree. Different eras, perhaps, but I'd consider it no more a 'formal setting' than I would meeting any of my girlfriend's friends, or anyone else outside of work. I'm dating Charlene, not Wayne.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark":No, I think I got this one 100% right. And unless Sir Alex, or whoever, actually KNEW the reporter (and they obviously get to know them) they would not be likely to use their name at all.'"
Again, we'll have to agree to differ. I'd still address him as Mr Ferguson if I chose to address him formally, as I refuse to recognise the honours system in any way, shape or form.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"He shouldn't. Lord Sugar would be correct. "Alan" would be rude. You don't know him. '"
If someone said, "Lord Sugar, this is Rock God" and he responded with "Hello, Rock", then he'd get a hearty "Hello, Alan" in return. If he said, "Hello Mr God", then I'd use "Mr Sugar". I wouldn't call him Sir or Lord for the reasons stated above.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"She shouldn't. It would (most likely) be "Mrs ...Whatever". Or "Nurse.. Whatever". Or just "Nurse". "Ethel" would be rude. You don't know her.'"
That wasn't the point I was making (as I think you know). Let me rephrase: Why should the beardy stain get 'Sir Alan' (as was) or 'Lord Sugar', when the nurse gets Nurse Higginbottom or, away from work Mrs Higginbottom? | | |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"But unless Wayne is referring to me as 'Mr God', he has no right to expect me to address him as Mr Smith. '"
Not a question of "rights", though but politeness.
Quote ="Rock God X"And if he considers a smile, a handshake and a 'nice to meet you' impolite just because I use his first name, he's not the sort of person whose opinion of me I'd particularly care about. '"
No, none of thse things are impolite, but he may reasonably consider use of his first name impolite. You'e already made the point that you don't give a fook, so we got that.
Quote ="Rock God X"Again, we'll have to agree to differ. I'd still address him as Mr Ferguson if I chose to address him formally, as I refuse to recognise the honours system in any way, shape or form.'"
But he doesn't KNOW that, does he. As he doesn't know you. So only you would know why you were seemingly being a prick.
Quote ="Rock God X"If someone said, "Lord Sugar, this is Rock God" and he responded with "Hello, Rock", then he'd get a hearty "Hello, Alan" in return. If he said, "Hello Mr God", then I'd use "Mr Sugar". I wouldn't call him Sir or Lord for the reasons stated above. '"
But equally pointless, as he doesn't KNOW your reasons for doing so.
Quote ="Rock God X"That wasn't the point I was making (as I think you know).'"
No, I replied to the point I thought you were making.
Quote ="Rock God X" Let me rephrase: Why should the beardy stain get 'Sir Alan' (as was) or 'Lord Sugar', when the nurse gets Nurse Higginbottom or, away from work Mrs Higginbottom?'"
Because using the CORRECT title is not "better" or "worse" but just "correct"! | | | |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"I think that was just a rumour on Twitter. Some journo or other later tweeted that he'd asked Murray and he'd said that it wasn't the case.'"
It seemed like a strange thing to do straight afterwards to me too, being a professional tennis player is all about earning money to feed the entourage that will travel with you, Ivan Lendl won't come cheap for starters, most of that prize money won't be Murrays to give away. | | |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Not a question of "rights", though but politeness.'"
But if he's going to be so impolite as to address me by my first name, he can't believe me to be impolite if I return the favour, can he?
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"No, none of thse things are impolite, but he may reasonably consider use of his first name impolite. You'e already made the point that you don't give a fook, so we got that. '"
I'm not sure he 'reasonably' could. In fact, I'm sure he 'reasonably' could not. If someone is polite to you in all other respects (Hello, nice to meet you, handshake, whatever), I'd say it's bloody [iun[/ireasonable to think that they were impolite because they use your first name.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"But he doesn't KNOW that, does he. As he doesn't know you. So only you would know why you were seemingly being a prick.
But equally pointless, as he doesn't KNOW your reasons for doing so.'"
A person might not KNOW my reasons for not addressing them as Sir Whatever, but it wouldn't take a genius to work it out if I was polite in all other respects.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"No, I replied to the point I thought you were making.
Because using the CORRECT title is not "better" or "worse" but just "correct"!'"
I disagree. I don't think it's 'correct' that a person is arbitrarily awarded an inflated title based (usually) on a politician's/head of state's whim, and that we should all have to use that title when equally (more?) deserving people have to get by on plain old Mr or Mrs. | | |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"But if he's going to be so impolite as to address me by my first name, he can't believe me to be impolite if I return the favour, can he? '"
Are you serious? Unless the girlfriend introduced you by surname, how would he know it? And it shouldn't need me to tell you that expecting the father of the girl to call you "Mr. " is in normal convention just plain silly. It would be perfectly normal, expected and appropriate to use your first name. Anyway I think you actually know tgis, and are just being awkward for the sake of it.
Quote ="Rock God X"I'm not sure he 'reasonably' could. In fact, I'm sure he 'reasonably' could not. If someone is polite to you in all other respects (Hello, nice to meet you, handshake, whatever), I'd say it's bloody [iun[/ireasonable to think that they were impolite because they use your first name. '"
Look, we aren;t discussing any other respects, just the (plainly) inappropriate unbidden use of the first name. Stick to the point. If you can.
Quote ="Rock God X"A person might not KNOW my reasons for not addressing them as Sir Whatever, but it wouldn't take a genius to work it out if I was polite in all other respects. '"
No, they couldn't work it out. Because they have no additional data. It could indeed just be that you are being a prick.
Quote ="Rock God X"I disagree. I don't think it's 'correct' that a person is arbitrarily awarded an inflated title based (usually) on a politician's/head of state's whim, and that we should all have to use that title when equally (more?) deserving people have to get by on plain old Mr or Mrs.'"
But you do NOT HAVE to, ffs, why don't you get that simple point? We are discussing polite behaviour, and rudeness. Nobody ever suggested compulsion. Also silly is the suggestion that honours are "arbitrary". And I don't (at all) argue the system is, or even could be, perfect, but what did they do - pick Bradley Wiggins and Jessica Ennis with a pin out of the phone book? | | |
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| Anal retentiveness! 
And yes, all Scottish male born citizens should be called "Sir" by their English counterparts.  | | |
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"We'll skirt around that one ...
 '"
Here we go again. | | |
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Are you serious? Unless the girlfriend introduced you by surname, how would he know it? And it shouldn't need me to tell you that expecting the father of the girl to call you "Mr. " is in normal convention just plain silly. It would be perfectly normal, expected and appropriate to use your first name. Anyway I think you actually know tgis, and are just being awkward for the sake of it.'"
We're not discussing what's 'normal convention', we're discussing what's polite. Stick to the point. If you can. It's no more impolite (whether conventional or not) for me to use his first name than it is for him to use mine.
As for 'convention', it may have been conventional for men to call their girlfriend's father 'Mr' in the 1950s, but it really isn't now. I'm in my mid thirties and have been married for the past ten years, so maybe convention has altered in that time, but I was never expected to call any one of my girlfriends' fathers 'Mr'. It was always, 'Ian, this is my dad, Dave; Dad, this is Ian'. They weren't always called Dave, that was just an example.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Look, we aren;t discussing any other respects, just the (plainly) inappropriate unbidden use of the first name. Stick to the point. If you can.'"
I utterly reject the notion that it's 'plainly inappropriate' to use a person's first name. It's not like dropping your pants in Tesco and taking a dump on aisle 3. 'Arguably inappropriate' would be better. As for the other respects, they are relevant to the point. You'd have to be a total prick to decide whether or not a person is polite based purely on whether they use your first name to address you. If I give a warm smile, look the person in the eye and say, "Hi, Bob, thanks for inviting me", surely that's more polite than, "Can we get this over, Mr Carolgees, so I can get back to humping your daughter?" Whether or not one considers a person to be polite is based on a whole myriad of factors, not just their form of address.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"No, they couldn't work it out. Because they have no additional data. It could indeed just be that you are being a prick.'"
But they DO have additional data. If they see me make eye contact, smile and say something like, "Good to meet you too, Alan, and may I say how excellent I found your fax/emailer", then they have loads of other data to decide whether or not I am a polite person. It wouldn't be a massive leap of logic for them to decide that, as I'd been so polite in every other conceivable way, that I wasn't omitting the 'Lord/Sir' part of the address out of simple rudeness.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"But you do NOT HAVE to, ffs, why don't you get that simple point? We are discussing polite behaviour, and rudeness. Nobody ever suggested compulsion. '"
Again, I think you know this, but by 'have to', I meant 'be expected to lest I am considered impolite'.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Also silly is the suggestion that honours are "arbitrary". And I don't (at all) argue the system is, or even could be, perfect, but what did they do - pick Bradley Wiggins and Jessica Ennis with a pin out of the phone book?'"
It's arbitrary from the point of view that most of the recipients are 'famous' and often incredibly well rewarded for what they do. Jessica Ennis is a great athlete. But she is reasonably well paid for being so and has an Olympic gold medal as recognition for her efforts. There are plenty of other people who are just as brilliant at what they do, and who do far more vital work, who don't receive a medal [ior[/i an honour from The Queen. I have the greatest respect for what she and the likes of Wiggins have achieved, but I still wouldn't call him 'Sir Bradley' if we were ever to meet. | | |
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| Quote ="Rock God X"
It's arbitrary from the point of view that most of the recipients are 'famous' and often incredibly well rewarded for what they do. Jessica Ennis is a great athlete. But she is reasonably well paid for being so and has an Olympic gold medal as recognition for her efforts. '"
I'd say that she is VERY well paid for running, skipping and jumping a bit.
There aren't too many people in the world who can earn enough money in a couple of years to last them for the whole of their life by doing something that they probably would have done for free as a hobby anyway. | | |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"I'd say that she is VERY well paid for running, skipping and jumping a bit.'"
Don't forget throwing! | | |
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Quote ="Rock God X"We're not discussing what's 'normal convention', we're discussing what's polite. Stick to the point. If you can. It's no more impolite (whether conventional or not) for me to use his first name than it is for him to use mine. '"
What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But these days what with Twitter, FB and the rest conventions have certainly changed a lot, and amongst a very large (but still minority) they seem to claim a right to be bloody rude, indeed in many cases there's clearly a need to butt in and make rude and nasty remarks. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that.
Quote ="Rock God X"As for 'convention', it may have been conventional for men to call their girlfriend's father 'Mr' in the 1950s, but it really isn't now. I'm in my mid thirties and have been married for the past ten years, so maybe convention has altered in that time, but I was never expected to call any one of my girlfriends' fathers 'Mr'. It was always, 'Ian, this is my dad, Dave; Dad, this is Ian'. They weren't always called Dave, that was just an example. '"
Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either?
Quote ="Rock God X"I utterly reject the notion that it's 'plainly inappropriate' to use a person's first name. It's not like dropping your pants in Tesco and taking a dump on aisle 3. 'Arguably inappropriate' would be better. '"
Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment".
Quote ="Rock God X" As for the other respects, they are relevant to the point.'"
Hmm. Let's see, then.
Quote ="Rock God X sets up a total Straw Man when he" You'd have to be a total prick to decide whether or not a person is polite based purely on whether they use your first name to address you. If I give a warm smile, look the person in the eye and say, "Hi, Bob, thanks for inviting me", surely that's more polite than, "Can we get this over, Mr Carolgees, so I can get back to humping your daughter?" '"
Have you got enough straw?
Quote ="Rock God X" Whether or not one considers a person to be polite is based on a whole myriad of factors, not just their form of address.'"
You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything.
If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it.
You might have a point in there struggling to get out. If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite.
Quote ="Rock God X" Again, I think you know this, but by 'have to', I meant 'be expected to lest I am considered impolite'. '"
Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right?
Quote ="Rock God X" It's arbitrary from the point of view that most of the recipients are 'famous' and often incredibly well rewarded for what they do.'"
And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process
https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview
In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you!
Quote ="Rock God X" Jessica Ennis is a great athlete. But she is reasonably well paid for being so and has an Olympic gold medal as recognition for her efforts. There are plenty of other people who are just as brilliant at what they do, and who do far more vital work, who don't receive a medal [ior[/i an honour from The Queen. '"
Name them. |
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Quote ="Rock God X"We're not discussing what's 'normal convention', we're discussing what's polite. Stick to the point. If you can. It's no more impolite (whether conventional or not) for me to use his first name than it is for him to use mine. '"
What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But these days what with Twitter, FB and the rest conventions have certainly changed a lot, and amongst a very large (but still minority) they seem to claim a right to be bloody rude, indeed in many cases there's clearly a need to butt in and make rude and nasty remarks. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that.
Quote ="Rock God X"As for 'convention', it may have been conventional for men to call their girlfriend's father 'Mr' in the 1950s, but it really isn't now. I'm in my mid thirties and have been married for the past ten years, so maybe convention has altered in that time, but I was never expected to call any one of my girlfriends' fathers 'Mr'. It was always, 'Ian, this is my dad, Dave; Dad, this is Ian'. They weren't always called Dave, that was just an example. '"
Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either?
Quote ="Rock God X"I utterly reject the notion that it's 'plainly inappropriate' to use a person's first name. It's not like dropping your pants in Tesco and taking a dump on aisle 3. 'Arguably inappropriate' would be better. '"
Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment".
Quote ="Rock God X" As for the other respects, they are relevant to the point.'"
Hmm. Let's see, then.
Quote ="Rock God X sets up a total Straw Man when he" You'd have to be a total prick to decide whether or not a person is polite based purely on whether they use your first name to address you. If I give a warm smile, look the person in the eye and say, "Hi, Bob, thanks for inviting me", surely that's more polite than, "Can we get this over, Mr Carolgees, so I can get back to humping your daughter?" '"
Have you got enough straw?
Quote ="Rock God X" Whether or not one considers a person to be polite is based on a whole myriad of factors, not just their form of address.'"
You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything.
If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it.
You might have a point in there struggling to get out. If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite.
Quote ="Rock God X" Again, I think you know this, but by 'have to', I meant 'be expected to lest I am considered impolite'. '"
Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right?
Quote ="Rock God X" It's arbitrary from the point of view that most of the recipients are 'famous' and often incredibly well rewarded for what they do.'"
And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process
https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview
In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you!
Quote ="Rock God X" Jessica Ennis is a great athlete. But she is reasonably well paid for being so and has an Olympic gold medal as recognition for her efforts. There are plenty of other people who are just as brilliant at what they do, and who do far more vital work, who don't receive a medal [ior[/i an honour from The Queen. '"
Name them. | |
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Incidentally, while "Nice to meet you" appears on the surface to be polite, there's a whole raft of society still that will judge you with an inner-raised eyebrow if you greet them with it. "How do you do" is still safest and correct.
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Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that.Quote
Obviously I don't, or I would not have made a claim contrary to that.
Quote Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either?'"
Oops? Really? We're sinking to that, are we? I addressed the matter of convention because you raised it. I notice you didn't answer the point I made, though. Much easier to post a silly 'oops', eh?
Quote icon_lol.gif Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment".'"
Hardly. It was the 'plainly' part I utterly rejected.
Quote Hmm. Let's see, then.
Have you got enough straw? '"
It's hardly a straw man to point out that one can be polite whilst using a first name just as easily as one can be impolite using a formal title.
Quote You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything.
If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it. '"
I would suggest that it is you, my friend, who has become confused. I wasn't talking about 'politeness credits' or any other such irrelevant guff. I'm taking about the initial impression a person might give upon meeting someone for the first time. If they are courteous and pleasant but use the first name, that is unlikely to bother most people. Those people who are bothered by an otherwise pleasant individual using their first name are almost certainly massive s.
Quote You might have a point in there struggling to get out.'"
You might have a non-condescending git in there. It's not struggling very hard to get out, though.
Quote If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite.'"
See above.
Quote Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right?'"
Not really.
Quote And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process
https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview
In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you!'"
'Even for you'? Was this you 'being funny' again? Or just needlessly combative?
Quote Name them. '" '" '"
You want me to name every outstanding nurse, teacher, doctor, scientist, fireman etc in the country? Might be a struggle, that. |
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Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"What's considered polite is inherently conventional. It is conventional to be polite. But anyway, the two cases (new boyfriend / girl's father) simply do NOT equate, and I'm sure you know that.Quote
Obviously I don't, or I would not have made a claim contrary to that.
Quote Oops. You appear to be discussing that which you just said we weren't discussing: convention. Can't you stick to the point either?'"
Oops? Really? We're sinking to that, are we? I addressed the matter of convention because you raised it. I notice you didn't answer the point I made, though. Much easier to post a silly 'oops', eh?
Quote icon_lol.gif Er, that's not an "utter rejection, then. It's a "slight amendment".'"
Hardly. It was the 'plainly' part I utterly rejected.
Quote Hmm. Let's see, then.
Have you got enough straw? '"
It's hardly a straw man to point out that one can be polite whilst using a first name just as easily as one can be impolite using a formal title.
Quote You are just confused. Being polite is not taken as some sort of overall average. Impoliteness can appear at any time, and however polite you may have been before then, once you go on to be impolite, that impoliteness isn't somehow negated by your previous behaviour. (Though allowances may be made, on the basis of the rudeness being 'out of character' - but that doesn't alter the general point). Your "myriad of factors" is just plain wrong. Anybody is capable of being impolite at any moment. Obviously. If they are, it will be judge on that incident. Just that one. Not a myriad of anything.
If you have been at Wayne's all evening and have been charming, totally deferential and the very model of politeness, but then say to Waynetta "Oy, more tea, bitch", do you argue that this remark might be considered polite, due to some built-up politeness credits? I doubt it. '"
I would suggest that it is you, my friend, who has become confused. I wasn't talking about 'politeness credits' or any other such irrelevant guff. I'm taking about the initial impression a person might give upon meeting someone for the first time. If they are courteous and pleasant but use the first name, that is unlikely to bother most people. Those people who are bothered by an otherwise pleasant individual using their first name are almost certainly massive s.
Quote You might have a point in there struggling to get out.'"
You might have a non-condescending git in there. It's not struggling very hard to get out, though.
Quote If you do, it would be "Whether or not one considers a person to be [igenerally a polite person[/i is based on a whole myriad of factors". But past politeness does not make any given rudeness polite.'"
See above.
Quote Woot, there ya go discussing convention again. That thing we're not discussing, right?'"
Not really.
Quote And now you are trying to reverse the meaning of "arbitrary". Whatever the honours system is, it's not that. You may not like it, it could be changed, improved, overhauled or scrapped, but it is in fact a very complex and involved process
https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview
In no sense does it qualify as "arbitrary". Oh and I also would point out that your claim most of the recipients are "famous" is self-evidently rubbish. [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/30_12_11newyears2012.pdfHere's[/url the full 2012 New year's Honours List. I have never, ever heard of the vast majority of these people. Most of them "famous"? that's nuts, even for you!'"
'Even for you'? Was this you 'being funny' again? Or just needlessly combative?
Quote Name them. '" '" '"
You want me to name every outstanding nurse, teacher, doctor, scientist, fireman etc in the country? Might be a struggle, that. | |
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Bloody phone won't let me edit the quote ballsup.
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| Quote ="WormInHand"Incidentally, while "Nice to meet you" appears on the surface to be polite, there's a whole raft of society still that will judge you with an inner-raised eyebrow if you greet them with it. "How do you do" is still safest and correct.'"
Have I accidentally wandered into a Jane Austen novel, or something? | | | |
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