It's great to see some opinion from you and it makes a (very) refreshing change from the usual stuff


I dont get with how this fits with your your jibes at "wizened old socialists" though and for the record, you are miles adrift on knowing my politics, they certainly dont fit with "70's Labour" but, there you go.
My "beef" is with having the country run by a proven liar, a Tory chancer, who is without moral compass and blows with the wind so, strangely, we may have some common ground in our opinions, which has come as a bit of a surprise.

Labour made a huge mistake when they chose the wrong Miliband.
David was just what they needed at that time but, that's history and they (Labour) are still paying a very heavy price.

So what's your opinion on momentum because at the mo the Labour party is in limbo

And so your beef is about Johnson who let's face it is a clown,mine is about momentum and all this project fear opinions passed off as fact on here ,and flippant lies like ghost 99saying labour didn't campaign when clearly they did ,and odious s like Ashworth who after being caught slagging Corbyn lied through his back teeth,you see the old adage they all in the same pot rings true

They frustrate me. To some degree, you have to deal with the world as it is, rather than as you’d wish it to be if you want to get closer to the latter.

They’d rather be ideologically pure and lose, even if that means the real, country-shaping decisions are made by a person like Boris Johnson.

The have some good ideas but, their ideas will never be accepted by sufficient numbers of the voting public. I'm not a fan of theirs.

FFS, do you have a clue how political parties actually work? Have you ever actually worked on by election campaign or know what is involved?
The Lib Dems were emailing members day after day after day to get volunteers from across the country down to Chesham to doorstep, Ed Davey and most of the 11 existing MPs virtually lived in the constituency the last few weeks.
Did Labour do any of this, the real signs of a proper campaign? Nope. Did Starmer even visit the constituency? Not that I'm aware of.
Labour are obliged to field candidates in every election but there is a vast difference between running a paper candidate that fulfils that obligation and the party actively campaigning to win the seat. Labour did none of the things which a party trying to win or even compete in a seat would do, happy for the LDs to do all the running and govt bashing in this localised campaign.

"project fear" was a very clever phrase created by the Brexit brigade and so many people, including yourself have copied the mantra and been taken in by it, which is a shame.
FWIW, I firmly believe that as people and as a country, impossible as it will be to measure, we will be worse off on the outside, than we were within the EU and nothing has been said or has happened yet, to convince me otherwise.
I fully accept the ideal of being a sovereign state and admire those who believe that it's worth being poorer to have "independence".
However, this was not the main thrust of the argument, in fact, the Brexit Bus and the lies printed on the side of it, tried to make the voters believe that we would be actually saving money.
Yes, the contributions to the EU pot disappear but, the cost of trade has increased (even with a FTA).
EVERY supplier that my business has in the EU has increased prices, primarily due to increased admin and transport costs and supplies are taking longer.
Yes, there are some alternatives but, had they been more competitive we would have already been using them.
Was this "project fear" or just bleeding obvious and in the short / medium term those costs have to be absorbed or passed on, creating some inflationary pressures.
Project fear ? no, it's reality.
Of course, Bojo will blame covid for any problems in the short term but, it just isn't the case.
Yes, covid has added to some of the problems but, cost increases were already inevitable.

Surely the leaflet posted through everybodies letterbox at the tax payers expense saying that good old Gideon Osbourne would have to do an emergency budget which would cost the average household 4 grand a year if we voted to leave ,not actual leaving just votingwas the biggest lie of the lot ,that's why i didn't vote in the referendum, I could see through the bull on both sides ,how it works out post brexit is anybodies guess ,what I wont be taken in by project fear,

The unions interfered with the Milliband decision ,that's another problem that Labour have got ,the likes is Scargill, Mccluskey and Andy Gilchrist are just militants ,I did a thesis on trade unions which really opened my eyes the more I researched,self serving s the lot of em


Mind you they're Angel's compared to the American ones

If you could see through the "bull" from both sides, surely, you should have voted for the side that you "believed" and not stayed on your sofa.
It does appear that your constant use of "project fear" would suggest that one of the sides had a fair old influence on you.

Perhaps, one as worldly wise as yourself, could explain the upside to Brexit and if you would be kind enough, please put a timescale on the "good times" ahead.

What part of how it works out post brexit is anybodies guess did you not get,

Seeing through the bull means I thought both sides were lying ,and as I've said before I was pretty indifferent to in or out ,basically the arguments for and against were the opinions of economists and their flawed thinking including studies and models and dependant on who payed them

And as the saying goes opinions ar like aholes ,everybodies got one ,you made a statement that we are going to fall off a cliff because of brexit while ghost 99 wrote that we were going to be a little bit poorer for leaving ,
So out of you 2 who's right and how have you come to your opinions ,by readings somebody else's opinion and believing their views ?

Anybody's guess ??

What the hell happened to "seeing through the bull".

What you are actually saying is that you dont know which side was right, the total opposite of your own previous comment.
My opinion is that we will all be a little poorer on the outside of the EU and that my business has additional costs.
So far, this is proven to be right, in bloody spades, where do you think we are at right now and more importantly, where do you think we will be in 5 or 10 years time.
You seem to have gone back into your "wind up" mode and lost the ability to "reason".

AS I said before, I have some admiration for those who believe that "independence" is more important than money but, the "bull" that you saw through NEVER suggested that we would be worse off outside the EU and whilst some of the "leave" campaign may have been exaggerated, fundamentally, they were right.

Covid has so far masked many of the consequences of leaving but, there is NOTHING yet to suggest that "we" will be "better off", NOTHING

There wasn't a side I believed

Ah, so you just let everyone else decide your fate. That explains rather a lot.
What happened to seeing through the "bull", it actually seems that, apart from picking up a Bojo catch phrase, you couldn't see very much at all.

Like a church fete

Another insightful contribution

Nice edit

Wrencat mate, I've got nothing sensible to add to this debate so would you do me a favour and do a typo. I'd like to pick you up on it please.

Anyway back to Kier Starmer ,I didn't realise that Labour were in serious trouble in Batley and Spen with the demographics
of the voting population ,read an Owen Jones piece in the Guardian ,had to give my eyeballs a good saline wash afterwards tho,but they are in real danger of losing so surely he will have to go if that happens, but who the hell could they elect to replace him ?

Lib Dems have all but confirmed today that they are supporting the Labour candidate in Batley which will be a modest boost (they got 2400 last election) but possibly a key one given the tight race. As I mentioned on the other thread, where its a straight shoot-out between the Cons and either Labour or LD, the 3rd party are bonkers to proactively campaign.

I agree losing Batley would be a huge blow to KS, but I also agree there's no one else emerging as a viable leader. You just got two agrees from a Liberal. It must be snowing in hell right?

I'm quite enjoying the "sport".
Giving of ones time to those less fortunate, is always a good thing to do and our "friend" certainly seems to fall into this category.
I'm loving the small insight into their world.
Thanks for the offer though

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