It's not just the schools, they've infiltrated [url=http://www.secularism.org.uk/news/2012/07/national-trust-promotes-creationism-at-new-visitor-centreThe National Trust[/url now.

That's the last penny the Trust will see from me

I hope they give as much credence to the story of Finn the Giant and his pavement to Scotland as they do the Creationist explanation, it has as much legitimacy although the Giant story doesn't have quite the same amount of comic value.

Me too.
Well, almost.
He told me the bible was nowt to do with him or his dad and was written by human beings.
He said that him and his dad wished we'd all be nice to each other, it would make a nice change.

Indeed, likewise I'll not be giving them any of my cash in a hurry.

That's put me off taking my family to St Michaels Mount on our summer holiday.

I've joined the Facebook group protesting against this.

[url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/national-trust-in-giants-causeway-creationism-row-7917687.htmlReport in The Indy[/url

Sounds like country suppers or tory donors all over again

Was about to join the National Trust in time for the school holidays. Will find something else to do now.

As I understand it, the information which is being conveyed at the centre states that some Young Earth Creationists believe that the Causeway was formed in this fashion. That statement is factually correct, many YECs do believe that. The centre is not saying that such a view is correct or is scientifically sound.

Like much of what the NSS bleats on about, it's a big hoo-haa over nothing.

So why not give equal credence to those believing that Finn the Giant created the causeway? Or to any other bat[is[/ihit loony sect for that matter

It's a sign. Loaves and fishes are off, chicken chow mein is the new holy of holy's.

There are two main groups making claims about the Causeway's formation - the scientists and YECs. The YEC are much, much smaller in number but it is still an opinion which holds some sway in NI.

I've never heard of anyone mention Finn the Giant before.

Double post.

Scientists aren't 'making claims' about anything, they're stating facts based on empirical evidence.

But if they don't believe in God, due to evidence, they must have a agenda!

The clue is in the name

Hi, o man who ignores all questions.

There are not two main groups. There is science, which is the only one of any relevance to the issue, and tells us the facts of the formation of the site. It is not an "opinion".

A few YCs are not in any sense a "main group", but a collection of misguided people who base bat loony views on literally no evidence at all, and are happy to ignore the incontrovertible evidence of, say, carbon dating, or the fossil record. It is only they who "make claims", which is all they can do, as they have zero evidence to support their entirely faith-based opinion.

Says the man who went cowering last time. You can still find my challenge in the thread that got closed. Feel free to PM me your response.



Of course it is an opinion. Scientists believe it or not have their own biases. Why? Well because they interpret data through a naturalistic framework from which God is completely removed. Ohter people, such as the creationists cited in the article, come to the table with their own baggage - their belief in God. They look at things through this lens and it helps shape their opinions on all kinds of things. This is the reason why you often get two groups of people looking at the same data and formulating conflicting views.

Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change, and with some regularity I might add. How many times has something been declared a fact only for the scientific consensus to shift and declare it incorrect? Whilst you can claim that that it is admirable that science is willing to change and self-correct, you cannot label scientific theories as fact. In science, today's fact is tomorrow's blunder.



Over 40% of the US population believes that God created the Heavens and the Earth. YECs are by no means a fringe group.

over 60% of the US population don't have a passport and couldn't identify Iraq on a map, maybe you should move over there and spread your hate filled poison.

:2v223e3l

You are merely demonstrating your ignorance of science.

Scientists look at the evidence and form hypotheses based on this evidence they then test this evidence
and formulate theories which provide an explanatory framework to for data.

If a theory or hypothesis is falsified scientists discard the exsting theory and formulate new hypotheses which are consistent with the data and proceed to test these new hypotheses. This allows scientists to discard bad ideas such as the idea that the earth is 6,000 years old which was falsified by geologists towards the end of the 18th century.

It is the scientific method which has allowed our species to travel into space, to cure numerous deadly diseased and come up with important inventions such as the computer.

The reason why science employs methodological naturalism is because applying the supernatural to explain natural natural phenomena does nothing to enhance our understanding of such phenomena as such claims are in themselves unfalsifiable and cannot be tested and where they can be tested they have been falsified.

Creationists on the other hand begin with the apriori view that their religious doctrine is true and then proceed to reject all evidence which contradicts their position. This can be seen in the statements of faith that creationists organisations usually require of their members and also in the fact that the "work" of so called creation scientists consists of little more than logical fallacies, misrepresentations of the scientific data and outright falsehoods.

In essence most creationists hold the view that when reality and doctrine differ reality is wrong and doctrine is correct.

:2v223e3l

The reason is that one side has a sound methodology that works and has improved our standard of living significantly and the "other side" rejects any evidence which doesn't confrom to their particular ancient mythology and has a dogmatic belief in the "truth" of this particular mythology.



The fact that scientific findings are always open to revision is one of its biggest strengths. As mentioned above it is this that allows scientists to discard bad ideas that are unable to explain the scientific data such as those of creationists.

You can stop your absurd rhetorical bull. You haven't, and won't, answer any questions. That's a fact.


Tosh. Scientists look at data scientifically. That would of course include, if there were any evidence of a god or gods, god. They do not remove god. There is no evidence of god.

You correctly identify the belief in god as "baggage" and again correctly realise that this baggage hinders any rational examination of evidence, as the result has to include a god, and that obviously pre-excludes any explanation that excludes god. In other words, if the truth does not include god, then they could never reach it.


I don't know. I can't think of a single example. perhaps you could post some links to this bizarre claim?


Nice straw man, but I have not done so.

If you don't even understand what a theory is, and conflate theory with fact, then what hope is there for debating in English? A grasp on language of at least that level is a prerequisite.

In the context of what we are talking about, a fact is something we observe in the world. A theory is our best explanation for it. For example, things fall. The theory of gravity explains it. Newton first outlined the theory, Einstein much improved and expanded the theory, scientists have done gazillions of experiments, tests and refinements, and the theory of gravity remains very much under research and development. There's a lot we now know, and a lot that we don't. But the fact that we do not have a 100% complete theory doesn't affect the fact that gravity exists and it doesn't affect the fact that it makes things fall.

The present state of the theory as to how the Giant's Causeway was actually constructed, which is the product of huge amounts of diligent and peer reviewed scientific research, tests and analysis, is what I would call a scientific theory.

It is not to be confused (but you do confuse it) with somebody saying "Yes, but I think it was formed in Noah's flood", because that is only a theory about as much as someone else saying "I think the Flying Spaghetti Monster did it". In other words, not a theory at all, but an irrational belief.

Many scientists hold deep spiritual and religious beliefs, it has nothing to do with how they interpret the natural world around them. Just saying God made everything, just as it is, is plainly rediculous.
If God made everything then he made the tide flow and he made rocks break when waves hit them. He must also have made the elements and be responsible for how they interact with each other. Unless God sits there and direct every wave and moves every grain of sand in the wind personally then blindly trotting out explanations for rock formations that are along the lines of "God created them just the way they are" without trying to understand the physical mechanism involved is so stupid not even God would be able to find a way of measuring it.

And what is this "Facts are facts. They do not change. Scientific 'facts' on the other hand do change" bullS4h!t? What's a scientific fact and what's a fact? Give me a fact then.

kirkstaller is a massive gormclops. FACT!

No, it isn't. I'm beginning to realise that you don't actually know what these words you keep using mean.


They interpret empirical evidence according to proven scientific principles. They don't [iremove[/i God - he simply isn't required. Plus you conveniently ignore the large number of scientists who are people of faith.


You recently claimed to understand science. This paragraph alone demonstrates how very far from understanding science you actually are. It is so wrong on so many levels that I literally do not know where to start. You are quite staggeringly ignorant about science and about the way the world works.

I want to hear one of these "Fact" facts.