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| I've always been pro gay but I do worry that everyone is being pushed into having the same opinions on anything contentious. If he opposes it and he genuinely believes in the reasons (other than pure prejudice) then he shouldn't be hounded out of a job for it.
It's almost akin to the thought police of 1984.
I'm all for people challenging opinion but trampling peoples opinions into dust is too extreme for me.
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"I've always been pro gay but I do worry that everyone is being pushed into having the same opinions on anything contentious. If he opposes it and he genuinely believes in the reasons (other than pure prejudice) then he shouldn't be hounded out of a job for it.
It's almost akin to the thought police of 1984.
I'm all for people challenging opinion but trampling peoples opinions into dust is too extreme for me.'"
On the other hand I am a child of the 1950s and so was brought up in an era when it was perfectly acceptable and reasonable to hold prejudiced views and to openly discriminate against black and Asian people, and the vast majority of the generation above me did, with no shame or embarrassment simply because thats what everyone did and it was very much reinforced by what was seen on TV most evenings.
It took the Race Relations Act of 1976 to change peoples viewpoint, to stop TV production company's from using race as a cheap shot or as the butt of a joke and even then the change was very slow - I was told in 1980 by a regional manager at the company I worked for to sack one electrician because he was Asian, no other reason, he'd spotted the name Patel on our weekly wages submissions and didn't want to see that name the following week and I can assure you that it was nothing to do with the quality of work as that particular manager had never met the bloke - he was based 300 miles away.
Sounds quite shocking now doesn't it but working for a building company at the time you could be barred from having a job just for having a scouse accent (have you read Ricky Tomlinsons biog ?) so the colour of your skin was always going to be a problem, christ knows what would have been said if being gay was mentioned - yes, you do need a change in the law and you do need to enforce the law quite firmly before some individuals will see the error of their ways.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"I was told in 1980 by a regional manager at the company I worked for to sack one electrician because he was Asian, no other reason, he'd spotted the name Patel on our weekly wages submissions and didn't want to see that name the following week and I can assure you that it was nothing to do with the quality of work as that particular manager had never met the bloke - he was based 300 miles away.'"
What did you do when ordered to sack someone for the offence of being called Patel?
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"What did you do when ordered to sack someone for the offence of being called Patel?'"
I didn't, we only had two electricians on that site and it was 100 miles away with two months left to run on the contract, financial argument meant that my boss had no justification for his opinion - it was still his opinion though.
We had quite a few incidents like it too including a black West Indian electrician of ours who was asked to leave an office building in Leeds while he was carrying out maintenance there, we got a phone call asking if we'd send "another" electrician the next day, by "another" they meant a white one.
Incidentally both of those were Approved Electricians, a higher grade than your run of the mill qualified electrician so both were most capable of doing the work and had taken time and money to gain their higher qualifications - thats the way it was in the 1970s, THATS why the law is often required to change public perception.
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| Religions being forced to marry people whose centuries old book has always been against it though?
I'm pro gay and atheist, there's nothing I wouldn't love more than equality and an end to superstition in the mainstream.
Either ban religion altogether or let them live it the way they want to live it. Forcing them to marry gay people isn't something I'd agree with myself.
I'm all for civil partnerships, I'm all for religious union if the heads of that religion changed thrir minds, but forcing them I don't agree with, why would a gay guy want to be part of a religion that believes their existence is an abomination?
Why force churches to do something their book teaches against?
The Mozilla guy is against gay marriage not necessarily against gays in general (I don't know though tbh).
I think this guy has issues, but he has his religion and he doesn't want things forced into it. How is it different to if a government makes them add vishnu in to be inclusive of Hindus?
I hate religion but it is what it is and I understand why they would fight it and give money to the cause.
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"I hate religion but it is what it is and I understand why they would fight it and give money to the cause.'"
I understand that too but my point is that changes in attitudes that are ingrained deep in society (whatever that society is) take a long time and will involve the use of the law given that the law is accepted as the will of that society - you have to accept the position otherwise there is no society and no concensus on anything.
I too don't understand why a gay person would want to be a part of an organisation that openly discriminates against them but that is the enigma and the draw of religion that on the one hand pulls followers in with the promise of "family" and then dictates what they can and can't do.
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"Religions being forced to marry people whose centuries old book has always been against it though?
I'm pro gay and atheist, there's nothing I wouldn't love more than equality and an end to superstition in the mainstream.
Either ban religion altogether or let them live it the way they want to live it. Forcing them to marry gay people isn't something I'd agree with myself.
I'm all for civil partnerships, I'm all for religious union if the heads of that religion changed thrir minds, but forcing them I don't agree with, why would a gay guy want to be part of a religion that believes their existence is an abomination?
Why force churches to do something their book teaches against?
The Mozilla guy is against gay marriage not necessarily against gays in general (I don't know though tbh).
I think this guy has issues, but he has his religion and he doesn't want things forced into it. How is it different to if a government makes them add vishnu in to be inclusive of Hindus?
I hate religion but it is what it is and I understand why they would fight it and give money to the cause.'"
The marriage equality legislation does not force any religion to carry out same sex marriages. It allows them to (except in the case of the CoE), which is something entirely different.
So what we have is a bunch of religious people who aren't going to be forced to get married to a gay person, aren't going to be forced to conduct the marriage ceremony of a gay couple (unless they work as registrars), but still can't live and let live. The religious groups are not the ones being persecuted here.
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| Is law the same in America?
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"Is law the same in America?'"
I think so, though I stand to be corrected. The opposition to the law over there, as here, seems to be that The Bible forbids it and that gay people can't possibly bring up normal, healthy children.
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| Don't get me wrong I'm an atheist, I'm just trying to strike a balance.
Forcing the church to do something against what they stand for I don't agree with, let them have their antiquated ways and let them slowly die off naturally when people get fed up of them and their ignorance and intolerance.
I don't believe a group of people with a core set of beliefs should have something they are dead set against forced down their throats (excuse the pun).
To me it's the same as the government forcing religion down mine like that of centuries ago.
I can cope with an element of intolerance for the greater good, they're not lynching them just not allowing them to get married into a belief system that thinks they're wrong.
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| Quote ="Wire Yed"Don't get me wrong I'm an atheist, I'm just trying to strike a balance.
Forcing the church to do something against what they stand for I don't agree with, let them have their antiquated ways and let them slowly die off naturally when people get fed up of them and their ignorance and intolerance.
I don't believe a group of people with a core set of beliefs should have something they are dead set against forced down their throats (excuse the pun).
To me it's the same as the government forcing religion down mine like that of centuries ago.
I can cope with an element of intolerance for the greater good, they're not lynching them just not allowing them to get married into a belief system that thinks they're wrong.'"
But that isn't the issue. Religious groups aren't campaigning to prevent gay couples being married in their churches - they want to deny them the right to marry anywhere. This is where the line must be drawn. I fully support their rights to be as bigoted and hypocritical as they like within the confines of their own homes/churches. But when they start trying to influence public policy that really has nothing to do with them, they deserve no tolerance whatsoever.
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| Completely agree with your last two sentences, I need to read up more though I just thought they were trying to stop gays marrying into their belief system not a full stop altogether. That's none of their business.
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| Quote ="Rock God X"...I fully support their rights to be as bigoted and hypocritical as they like within the confines of their own homes/churches. ...'"
I don't. I don't even remotely support their "right" to be bigoted in their own heads, and if anyone hears them express this bigotry, whether in their home, or their church, it should be challenged.
In my opinion the dangerous combination of (a) brainwashing children into being of a particular religion coupled with (b) family and peer pressure to attend regular religious ceremonies / services / assemblies and then (c) the confirmatory brainwashing that group religion engenders especially by playing very much to the herd/club mentality that is inherent in most people - the desire to belong to a gang/group, or failing that, scared of being seen to not belong and being ostracised or worse - is what gives all the religions their holds over their particular sections of societies.
So it's not OK (for example) for a hundred people in some church to all whip themselves up into some frenzy over god's punishment for gays etc.
If some religious zealot presumably respected as an authority preaches hate to their subjects from whatever pulpit I do NOT support this bigotry in the slightest, and if there is indeed a "right" to behave in that way then to me that is a misuse and abomination of what the word "rights" should be used for.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I don't. I don't even remotely support their "right" to be bigoted in their own heads, and if anyone hears them express this bigotry, whether in their home, or their church, it should be challenged.
In my opinion the dangerous combination of (a) brainwashing children into being of a particular religion coupled with (b) family and peer pressure to attend regular religious ceremonies / services / assemblies and then (c) the confirmatory brainwashing that group religion engenders especially by playing very much to the herd/club mentality that is inherent in most people - the desire to belong to a gang/group, or failing that, scared of being seen to not belong and being ostracised or worse - is what gives all the religions their holds over their particular sections of societies.
So it's not OK (for example) for a hundred people in some church to all whip themselves up into some frenzy over god's punishment for gays etc.
If some religious zealot presumably respected as an authority preaches hate to their subjects from whatever pulpit I do NOT support this bigotry in the slightest, and if there is indeed a "right" to behave in that way then to me that is a misuse and abomination of what the word "rights" should be used for.'"
I don't support the bigotry, but I do accept that freedom of speech means that some people will ultimately say some very unpleasant things. I do take the point about indoctrinating children into this mindset, however. That is totally unacceptable. But if a group of consenting adults want to sit around assuring themselves that recent flooding is a direct result of God's vengeance on the 'fags', it is entirely their right to do so.
Edit: I agree that such behaviour should be challenged, too. Every single time. But I think there's a difference between telling someone their views are unacceptable, and flatly denying their right to hold those views.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"I don't. I don't even remotely support their "right" to be bigoted in their own heads, and if anyone hears them express this bigotry, whether in their home, or their church, it should be challenged.
In my opinion the dangerous combination of (a) brainwashing children into being of a particular religion coupled with (b) family and peer pressure to attend regular religious ceremonies / services / assemblies and then (c) the confirmatory brainwashing that group religion engenders especially by playing very much to the herd/club mentality that is inherent in most people - the desire to belong to a gang/group, or failing that, scared of being seen to not belong and being ostracised or worse - is what gives all the religions their holds over their particular sections of societies.
So it's not OK (for example) for a hundred people in some church to all whip themselves up into some frenzy over god's punishment for gays etc.
If some religious zealot presumably respected as an authority preaches hate to their subjects from whatever pulpit I do NOT support this bigotry in the slightest, and if there is indeed a "right" to behave in that way then to me that is a misuse and abomination of what the word "rights" should be used for.'"
I assume you also disagree with school children being indoctrinated by the state via sex education classes? Should our children be exposed to over-representation of minority views / activities?
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| Quote ="Dally"I assume you also disagree with school children being indoctrinated by the state via sex education classes? Should our children be exposed to over-representation of minority views / activities?'"
There has been a very wide range of regularly changing sex education initiatives in schools and this continues.
My understanding of the general thrust of these (no pun intended) is to present facts and increase awareness.
I am unaware of any particular sex education policy which included "indoctrination". Indoctrination into what doctrine? Can you provide any particular specific example?
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| "I don't support the right of someone to be 'bigoted''
What a contradiction in terms. What does this even mean?!
So essentially you don't support someone who has views which you decide are bigoted.
Who decides which views are bigoted and which are not I wonder?
Essentially by taking such a stance you are bigoted yourself as you don't tolerate someone else's opinion.
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| Quote ="Ajw71""I don't support the right of someone to be 'bigoted''
What a contradiction in terms. What does this even mean?! '"
Try it in small chunks, my dim witted friend. It's actually fairly simple.
Quote ="Ajw71"So essentially you don't support someone who has views which you decide are bigoted. '"
Nearly. I don't support someone who has views which are bigoted.
Quote ="Ajw71"Who decides which views are bigoted and which are not I wonder?
Essentially by taking such a stance you are bigoted yourself as you don't tolerate someone else's opinion.'"
Whether I tolerate someone else's opinion or not is irrelevant to bigotry. When I call someone a bigot, it’s not because I disagree with their opinion, or do not tolerate their opinion. It’s because they were being bigoted. It’s pretty simple.
But the novice-bigot's argument that intolerance of bigots = being bigoted against bigots is hardly novel, if self-evidently stupid. Disagreeing with a bigot, or trying to convince a bigot that he is wrong, is not bigotry.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
Whether I tolerate someone else's opinion or not is irrelevant to bigotry. '"
Seeing as the definition of bigotry involves intolerance of the opinion of others I'd say it is quite relevant.
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| Quote ="Ajw71"Seeing as the definition of bigotry involves intolerance of the opinion of others I'd say it is quite relevant.'"
Then you'd be either concentrating on the wrong thing, or going off on a tangent as you can't win the main argument, and so want to deflect or sidetrack it.
It's not working.
I qualified that statement with "When I call someone a bigot, it’s not because I disagree with their opinion, or do not tolerate their opinion." You would be better off addressing that, instead of selectively ignoring the point and hoping nobody will notice what you're doing.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Then you'd be either concentrating on the wrong thing, or going off on a tangent as you can't win the main argument, and so want to deflect or sidetrack it.
It's not working.
I qualified that statement with "When I call someone a bigot, it’s not because I disagree with their opinion, or do not tolerate their opinion." You would be better off addressing that, instead of selectively ignoring the point and hoping nobody will notice what you're doing.'"
You said in your earlier post that you don't support their right to be bigoted which implies that you don't support their right to an opinion.
Your subsequent qualification is noted.
But I would like to know who decides whether someone is being bigoted or not? Aren't we all bigots at some point if we don't tolerate the opinions of others. What is tolerance? How far do you have to go to tolerate a view? Listen to it, accept it? All a bit vague isn't it. But if you hound someone out of a job for not having the same view as you, or even the majority of the population - isn't that intolerance?
You make a good point regarding the 'culture' of Mozilla which I don't know about.
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| Typical Sin Bin shooting match.
The 'intelligentsia' (who are deeply suspicious and intolerant of anyone they consider to be even slightly right of centre), are running around accusing others of being bigoted, whilst on other threads panning anyone who disagrees with their point of view.
Anyhow...have 5 rounds. And in your own time....at the target in front....go on.
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| Quote ="Ajw71"You said in your earlier post that you don't support their right to be bigoted which implies that you don't support their right to an opinion. '"
Absolute nonsense and you know it. Opinion in general - good. Bigotry - bad. How is that hard?
Quote But I would like to know who decides whether someone is being bigoted or not?'"
Albert J. Blenkinsop.
Quote Aren't we all bigots at some point if we don't tolerate the opinions of others.'"
No.
Quote What is tolerance? How far do you have to go to tolerate a view? Listen to it, accept it? All a bit vague isn't it. But if you hound someone out of a job for not having the same view as you, or even the majority of the population - isn't that intolerance? '"
He resigned. Challenging bigotry is not intolerance in any sensible or relevant way. You might as well accuse someone of bigotry for being intolerant of paedophiles, or serial killers, or genocidal maniacs. You are trying to mount a defence of the indefensible with the absurd.
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| Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Absolute nonsense and you know it. Opinion in general - good. Bigotry - bad. How is that hard?
Albert J. Blenkinsop.
'"
Who decides?
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"
He resigned. Challenging bigotry is not intolerance in any sensible or relevant way. You might as well accuse someone of bigotry for being intolerant of paedophiles, or serial killers, or genocidal maniacs. You are trying to mount a defence of the indefensible with the absurd.'"
I didn't define the word. The authors of various dictionaries did.
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| This is a bit too weird. I find myself in an "argument" with a man who cannot recognise bigotry, implying that there is no such universal concept but it is a matter of individual decision; yet simultaneously hides behind some other person's dictionary definitions.
A man who sees that bigotry includes an element of intolerance, and so leaps to the position that anyone who is intolerant of anything is therefore a bigot. Hey presto. Not noticing, perhaps, that "bigotry" and "intolerance" are actually different words for a reason.
Dictionaries reflect the meaning of words. They don't set it. If you don't know what bigotry is you shouldn't try to discuss it until you have gained that understanding.
I am intolerant of glucose. Does that make me a bigot? I shouldn't imagine so as I actually like sweet things and even Lucozade. Maybe I will have to revisit my position on the substance.
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