No! If the banks go under then the ECB guarantee kicks in, so the smaller saver should get 100% of their funds as opposed to the 90% originally proposed.

Nice bit of racial stereotyping there Dally.

And he likes the Germans.
They offer him butties on long train journeys.

Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors?

Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors?

Can't see them being able to re-open until a bail-out happens and capital controls are in place. If they do re-open beforehand it will be for very limited withdrawals.

I think Britain should use its overseas aid budget to bail them out. Would help the cause of breaking up the EU.

Seeing as it's no longer 'conspiracy theory' to say banks create money out of nothing can anybody give me one good reason Private Banks should have control over a nations money supply?

Quote ="LeighGionaire"Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors?'" The banks are closed to the public but are open so staff can get in and fill ATM's. If you are desperate to some cash you can get at it just not in one huge amount.

Quote ="LeighGionaire"Dally is right about bank deposits. BTW anybody catch the Jeremy Vine show today? One of the commentators on the show actually stated the unspoken truth that 97% of our money is in fact created as a loan by Private Banks (debt money) and mentioned that over the last 12 months our money supply has dropped by 12% due to people paying off debt and banks not creating new money by refusing to make new loans. (1 Hour 54 minutes into the show). www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r771l Also I see the banks in Cyprus are still closed - surely there's going to be a bank run once they finally open the doors?'" The banks are closed to the public but are open so staff can get in and fill ATM's. If you are desperate to some cash you can get at it just not in one huge amount.

Its never been a 'conspiracy theory' to say banks create money out of nothing - its still complete nonsense, like the last thousand times you suggested it.

One thing that irks me is the Germans tut-tutting over the southern states (understandably in some cases), and yet the economic disaster in that part of the Eurozone is - entirely coincidentally of course - helping to ensure the continued competitiveness of German manufacturing through keeping the Euro low. In that sense the Germans aren't 'paying' for anything - its the other way round.

[url=http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/europe/2013/03/cracked-heart-old-worldQuite interesting article on 'the German problem'.[/url

I think it simplifies some aspects of the history: it was Prussia specifically that suffered when trying to be neutral, both in the Thirty Years War and in 1806 when Napoleon invaded, and suffered horrendously as a result, which facts can inform an understanding of foreign policy under the newly unified Germany from 1871 on.

It's difficult to emphasise enough that the Thirty Years War was not a 'German war' – it was a European war that happened to take place on German soil. Thankfully he mentions the role of Brits in that – although he doesn't go on to point out that many of those who learnt their soldiering in that conflict then went on to put their experience to use in the English Civil Wars.

However, at least he mentions that part of the 'problem' is actually a continuing Germanophobia – something we could argue has been seen here.

The deposit guarantee scheme only comes into play if banks go bust. This is not the case so it wasn't ever a case of honouring or not honouring deposits guarantee schemes so I don't know what youo are on about there.

The debate is about the nature of a bailout and the terms of that including the raid on deposits which was imposed by the troika and the Germans are most certainly behind that as explained below.



What do you mean not to blame? For what? My post was paraphrasing the comments of the CEO of the German Stock exchange on the German position regarding who should fund the Cypriot bail out. So it most certainly IS true that the German position on that is as stated which is that Cyprus must contribute.

Furthermore the motivation for the bailout deal being structured as it is with savings being targeted for the 6bn Euros is a direct consequence of German politicians views that a straightforward bailout would be rewarding large Russian deposit holders and the Germans also view these depositors potentially being involved in money laundering. This is THE big motivator behind the raid on deposits and it is as a result of this German view that the troika put the deal of 10bn of loans and 6bn from deposits to Cyprus.

The money laundering aspect is big news in Germany and there is no way Germany would support a different restructuring package because of this.

As of today the ECB has come out and said it will only support the Cypriot banks until Monday 25th. Cyprus has to find 6bn by Monday in a way that satisfies the ECB/IMF or their banks collapse. All hail the democratically elected ECB and IMF officials....oh wait a minute

Nonetheless, the German finance minister and the IMF wanted depositors with less than 100k Euros exempted from any levy as they considered this to be in conflict with the guarantee. The Cypriot government decided differently in an attempt to mollify their Russian paymasters.


Not to blame for depositors with less than 100k Euros being part of the deal. I never contested the point that Cyprus was required to contribute.


It's not just the Germans who have these concerns.


The German [ipublic[/i certainly wouldn't. The German government has stated that it's up to Cyprus where the 6bn Euro comes from.


This is rather like me complaining about how undemocratic it is that my bank sets conditions on loaning me cash or setting up an overdraft.

That's as maybe but it doesn't alter the fact the Germans are ultimately behind the raids on deposits and I am sure not everyone on Cyprus who has more than 100K is a member of the Russian mafia.



The actions of German government and the opinions of the German people are linked you know and it is German public opinion is driving its government to insist on a bailout structured as it is.

They may not be the only ones to have the view of money laundering in Cyprus but it is most certainly a big political issue in Germany and Merkel is not going to ignore public opinion about the issue and agree to a bailout of a full 16bn loan with elections coming up. It is naive to think otherwise.

As to the 6bn being founded from deposits the troika are as responsible for that as anyone. Here is Dijsselbloems, the Eurogroup president, opinion on the matter

"The levy I can strongly defend, because it is a direct way to ask a contribution of the deposits of the banking sector in Cyprus, which is inevitable if you want to a build a package which doesn't bring more loans and more debt to Cyprus than the 10 billion (euros) I mentioned before."

From here: [urlhttp://www.reuters.com/article/2013/03/21/eurozone-cyprus-eurogroup-idUSL6N0CD30520130321[/url

Now that just mentions its a better way to do it than borrowing more but everyone knows the politics behind it which are primarily those of German reluctance to fully fund loans for the the reasons already mentioned.

He does also say its better if larger depositors pay more but that still means a raid on deposits which is wrong in principle IMO.



Nothing like it at all. Here they are going against the principle that they themselves came up with that bond holders not savers suffer when banks fail and they are doing it for no other reason than German politics. It also sets a precedent that unelected bodies like the ECB can simply make things up as they go along. How secure do you think savers in other countries feel as a result?

I think there's pretty good reasons for "Germanophobia" don't you? Europe has an ageing population with millions of people still alive who suffered as a result of their evil. They are individually and collectively a nation of bullies who only respect one thing - being stood up to. I say well done Cyprus and I would really like the UK to bail Cyprus out on the condition they leave the Euro and join a new "sterling zone."

I really don't know where to start with this overheated xenophobic twaddle.
I'm going to assume you are trolling again.

Assume what you wish. But is it or is it not that many millions of living beings in Europe have suffered at the hands of the Germans? Given that, do you not think that a bit of "Germanophobia" is not to be expected?

I'm following most of these arguments, but can someone help me with this money laundering bit?

The Germans are proposing to take a cut off the big depositors, because the money is largely laundered?

If funds are laundered, surely the thing to do is return them to their true owner, or confiscate them under due process? Not just demand a cut, in an Al Capone stylee?

If an EU member state is so overtly laundering money, does that not mean their has been a catastrophic failure in regulation by the EU? Shouldn't senior heads roll?

Next thing we know, Dally will reveal that, on the same basis, he understands and agrees with anti-British sentiments.

Don't be silly Minty the 100 year war was us just having a jolly in France, The fact we tried to destroy the french way of life was purely accidental.

In assuming trolling on your part, I was being kind.

The vast majority of Germans weren't even born in the time you are talking about.
According to your logic, purely by virtue of being English, you and I are "evil" because of what "we" did at Amritsar, for "our" concentration camps in SA and because "we" burned Joan of Arc.

But hey, labelling a nation as "evil" is so much easier than actually putting some thought into the argument, isn't it?

The Germans are not ultimately behind the raid on deposits [ibelow 100k Euros[/i. Which is the point I am contending.


Really? Blimey - I never would have guessed. They are not, however, identical.


Good job I never suggested any such thing then.


He's Dutch. And the Eurogroup are not Germany.


I agree.


The ECB and IMF are not democratic institutions, so criticising them for being undemocratic is a tad redundant. They will be operating under rules and guidelines created by democratic institutions though. IMO they are a better target for ire.

Savers in other countries will be feeling a lot less secure if Cyprus ever get around to actually implementing this levy. At that point I expect runs on banks in a number of EU states. The whole thing is a mess.

And all those English soldiers who learnt their soldiering in the Thirty Years War – and then brought their expertise to bear in the English Civil Wars.

And that's not entirely unrelated to our history in Ireland.

And this doesn't even mention our imperial adventures in Africa and India and the far east ...

Not, incidentally, that I do 'sins of the fathers' and think any nation saintly or that we should all go around feeling ashamed of things we had absolutely no role in or control over.

And you are wrong. Read this: [urlhttp://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-21812853[/url

Specifically:

[iUPDATE 14:20: A well-placed official rings to tell me why investors should not be panicking that the punishment of Cypriot depositors is a precedent, or that lenders to Spanish and Italian banks will be spanked as well before too long.

He says the structure of the Cypriot bailout has been determined by German politics. (Aren't all eurozone bailouts fixed in that way?)

Here is the logic behind imposing a hefty levy on Cyprus deposits, according to this official:

1) Regulators and politicians are convinced that a vast amount of cash in Cypriot banks belongs to Russian money launderers.

2) Few German politicians of any persuasion would have voted for a Cyprus rescue that simultaneously rescued these launderers.

3) So the only way to get the bailout through the Bundestag is for the launderers to be taxed to the tune of almost 10% of their allegedly ill-gotten cash. And if innocent savers are hurt too, that is the way this particular "Keks" will crumble.

[/i

So now do you accept not only did the Cypriot government have to contribute 6bn Euors the Germans are behind the fact it had to be done via a raid on deposits?



It would seem they are wouldn't it?



It includes Germany and the German parliament would have to back the deal and the only way that was happening was with a raid on deposits. They are the ones who couldn't sell it to their electorate without a deposit raid. The CEO of the German stock exchange made the same point on Newsnight. Paxman actually asked him was he worried if Germany was seen as acting as a bully in all this. Paxman, the CEO and the Cypriot economist on the show were not under any illusions as to who was the driving force behind the need for a deposit raid and it's Germany because they want to give Russian depositors there a haircut.



I never said they were. The point I was making was a government was being told what to do by an undemocratic body.



I agree. Despite assurances that "this is different" the troika have shown they will do basically what they want so why are they to be trusted? When people go on about the perils undemocratic European integration this gives them plenty of ammunition.

That's an anonymous quote, there. Always dodgy.

And indeed, even on the basis of assuming that quote to be correct, it does not say what you want it to say.

It says: "He says the structure of the Cypriot bailout has been determined by German politics." This is not one and the same with 'the German government demanded this particular plan'.

It could entirely reasonably mean that what you have already acknowledged (that there's an election in Germany this year etc) has been influential in this particular plan being hatched.

Don't get me wrong – I'm no fan of the pastor's daughter and her political friends, but I do get a sense (perhaps wrongly) that you are quite happy to pursue a certain line on precisely the basis of the Germanophobia that was mentioned in the article I linked to this morning.

Because the idea that this is somehow the sole responsibility of Germany is basically nonsense and, as that article suggests, is massively influenced by that 'og God, the Krauts are involved again – it's the Nazis back' kind of attitude.

Your response to the issue of the man you quoted being Dutch and the Eurogroup not being just Germany is revealing, because exactly the same thing that you claim for Germany in that situation can be said of every other member of that group. Germany couldn't carry that group on its own, even it was the one screaming: 'let's hit the small savers of Cyprus!'

Where in that piece does it state that the German government was behind the levy on depositors with less than 100k Euro? because I can't see it. And the German finance minister has specifically stated that he and the IMF were against the idea because of the conflict with the principle of the depositor guarantee.


Only if you don't understand the situation.


It includes other countries as well as Germany. Are they blameless in your eyes. Oh, wait - you think the nasty Germans are bullying everyone again.


No it isn't. It's being offered a choice. It can do what it likes.


Except that this situation is being largely driven by politics, which in turn is being driven by democratically elected politicians worried about the voting public. This situation is a mess largely because of politics and the conflicting demands of the democratic process.