I guess it would depend on the point you were trying to make



It's a pity that Boris hasn't yet had his inquest into racism within the Tory party though, it might have weeded out some of their racist party members, you know, the ones that tell people born in England to go "home" to Pakistan


And there are still some that deny that there is any kind of issue and that we already have robust laws and a tolerant society.

The country is run predominantly by white, middle aged, middle class men, as is the justice system and while there is absolutely no doubt that things, in genera, are improving, there is certainly plenty of work to be done.

I presume you have taken the knee for your new masters.

Absolutely spot on with your reference to white middle aged middle class men. That’s the point I keep trying to make on this forum. The whole system is rigged against the lower end of the working population. The voting system Is rigged Probably one of the main reasons some of the working class areas in the north have voted Tory. Not certain how that will work out.

Jog on

deary me.

YOU brought up the gender pay gap, not me. As I said, it's a false equivalence to the issue of race equality and it's been shown many times that when you take EVERYTHING into account, the gender pay gap doesn't - in most cases - exist. You didn't answer the question - should Liz Bonnin be paid the same as David Attenborough? Because that's what you're advocating.

You're right, posting a job advert based on gender would be illegal. But it seems posting an [url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-36443113apprenticeship based on skin colour[/url isn't.

Blacks want 'equality', yes? So tell me, what challenges face a black lad on a council estate that a white lad doesn't face? Where is the institutional or rife societal racism racism that holds him back? I don't deny racism exists, but does racism remove all his opportunities? Is he denied education? Is he unable to apply for jobs? Is he unable to get out of bed and get on a bus and go to work?

If you're saying the majority of the black community come from poorer backgrounds and therefore the challenges are hard - then the same applies to poor whites. The challenges are largely the same. In a community largely living in poverty, drugs, drink, casual criminality and violence are commonplace. Where peer pressure leads to the wrong path. Where it's not 'lit' to be studying hard and working in McDonalds for petty cash or to be working 9-5. Where your only suit is your weddings/funerals/court suit. Where a life of casual criminality is the norm, hence a much higher rate of police interaction and the possibility of a criminal record. Those are the main factors denying someone career opportunities and a good job, not racism.

So let's ignore the fact BLM want to dismantle the state, the police, the family unit, capitalism and 'patricarchy' (everyone else ignores these things), and let's ignore the fact that in reality the idea that blacks are being slaughtered by the police in the UK is preposterous - what can actually change to make things better for poorer black communities? What do they want? It's easy to sing about 'equality' or 'justice' - what does this mean? Tell me, because I genuinely do not know.

You want less harassment from the police? Don't carry knives or stab people. Don't deal or do drugs. Don't engage in casual criminality. You want a good education? Knuckle down and study and ignore that deadhead mate taking the pss. You want a good job? Work your way up and be better than the people around you, and develop yourself. That's how people 'get on' in life.

In the US about 53% of all murders and 54% of all robbery are committed by black men aged 15-40. That's about 3.5% of the population, hence why young black men interact with the police at far higher rates. I don't know what the comparison is here but it seems to me that certain parts of the BLM 'movement' want to live outside the law without any of the consequences. And they want, erm, 'stuff' handed to them. Probably.

Have you taken a knee yet?

No need to, I just feel sorry for the idiots like you, typing with sore knuckles must be a challenge, good job you have your Sister around to "wipe up the dribbles"...

Do you mean "taken a knee" like Domonic Raab, another really well informed Tory cabinet Minister.

The rest of your post could be taken from the Daily Mail archive.
The same editorial that was calling our NHS staff lazy and anyone on benefits, scroungers.

Let's start with EVERYONE being equal in the eyes of the law and then try and move on from there.
Racism, unfortunately is ingrained accross society and given our country's history, how could it be anything else.

Yes, it's improving but, there is a long, long way to go.

As for racism denying ALL opportunities, of course it doesn't.
However, just as with the example that I threw in about gender equality, it means that some minority groups have to work a damn sight harder and be a damn sight more determined to make it but, you know this.

Very interesting, however the population in England round about that time was tiny compared with today’s population. Migration into the uk in the last 15 years is measured in the millions. Latest reports think at least a million illegal migrants (not registered)are in the country. I don’t suppose they are all working in charity shops

So, no answers. Nothing. More rhetoric, no answers. You're all clamouring for 'equality', 'justice' etc - but what does it look like? Third time of asking.

You call it a Mail editorial, I wouldn't know. But show me anything inaccurate in my post. Anything. Typical of the left, belittle and dismiss the inconvenient truth if it doesn't support the victim narrative.

Tell me, who exactly is unequal in the eyes of the law?

And yes, take a knee just like Dominic Raab, the first person in authority to show a pair of cojones, unlike Labour who capitulated at the first opportunity. You might be surprised to know the majority haven't taken a knee and have no intention of doing. You probably assume that means everyone is racist, and that's part of the problem.

Race relations in the UK have regressed 30 years in the last month. There's far more division now than in decades.

Anyway, another question you didn't answer - have you taken a knee?

I won’t bother going into all your posts as you never seem to respond to any facts. You quote Attenborough and Bonin. Im not sure anyone advocated them being paid the same. But I can safely say that Lineker £1.75 m is not worth 10 x Clare Balding £175 k. Nor is Jeremy. BOwen or Jon Sopel whom I like both off , worth x2 of Carrie Gracie who I also like. That was a gender pay gap which was working for decades.

Was it not the same Dominic Raab who as the Brexit minister did not realise the importance of Dover to our trade.

Perhaps, but illegal immigration and multiculturism are different things.




I think you’ve pretty much answered your own question there. Unless you’re saying that discrimination only becomes an issue when it is absolute and all opportunities are denied.

I like ‘equality’ in inverted commas, and ‘justice’ later on. Obviously, it’d be childish of me to start doing it with another abstract concept, such as ‘sovereignty’, and, equally obviously, that won’t be stopping me. Gammons want ‘sovereignty’, yes? So tell me, what challenges faced a gammon that aren’t there following our departure from the EU? I don’t deny that membership of the EU meant some pooling of ‘sovereignty’ but did it remove all our political, economic and legal independence?



Are you suggesting that all black people carry knives or are involved in drugs and casual criminality, or that only those that are, are harassed by the police? In which case it wouldn’t really be harassment, in fairness. If you’re saying it is a skin colour thing and innocent black people have to expect harassment or discrimination because of what black criminals do, that seems strange to me. I think it’d be unfair, and frankly ridiculous, for me to be judged based on the worst actions of other white people or be racially profiled, for example, as the sort of person who associates political protest with lager.

I think the point Cronus has some validity - if things are going to improve it can't all be due to "white people" changing their behaviour - the "blacks" have to play their part. Perhaps if they provided a stable home environment that might encourage their kids to focus on their education and their ultimate aspirations?

Nooo, it has to be based on smacking your bitch up, shooting, selling drugs, we cannot possibly deny their culture. Hoe's and Bro's, da fruiture, innit...? put a cap in da ass and smite the honkey....

No wonder we have issues of cohesion in this country!!

cohesion works, problem is when the limited brains on the fringes claim to speak for the majority.

I disagree - the problem is the cultural differences are insurmountable and getting wider as the ethnic communities grew and gain confidence. As I have said before who sold the slaves? Their inhumanity to each other e.g. honour killings, sharia law, their views on homosexuality etc smacks of cultures that haven't been capable of moving on.

I disagree, no the problem is bored individuals switching allegiance to suit their loneliness.. stay safe.

We’re all responsible for our actions as individuals, and the same rules and judgements should apply, irrespective of colour. And tbf, that is all anybody is asking for (well, apart from banning the coco pops monkey and what have you - some individual people’s words deserve to be judged as stupid, irrespective of colour). In terms of addressing racism in the UK, it does largely have to be about changing attitudes among white people - for the simple reason that white people are the dominant majority. But yeah, we should do it together - none of that poop where one group is singled out as problematic and has to go to specialist citizenship classes. It isn’t my fault I’m the same colour as the majority of those that need most help with this issue, and their views and actions shouldn’t reflect on me as an individual or place a burden on me.



That’s an interesting grab bag. Certainly the White Anglosphere is a long, long, LONG way from being alone in working through its cultural baggage. But equally it doesn’t always do a brilliant job of moving on either - Confederate flags and yearnings for lost Empire and deference from darker folk, for example. You just have to try to take forward the good and leave behind the bad - which’ll often be a subjective judgement. But, we’d all agree, I’m sure that racism, despite its prevalence, is stupid and best left behind us. I mean, look at examples elsewhere in the world that don’t even involve white people and try to rationalise them. Fundamentally they are the same thing, and fundamentally they’re as ridiculous as they horrible.

Just because you are black doesn't mean the standard of education on offer is any worse, the fact you don't live in an atmosphere that encourages you to make the most of it or a peer group who don't see the opportunity it offers has nothing to do with racism - its culture and only one group can turn that around. Perhaps if the ethnics were prepared to integrate more rather than living in closed communities that would help. Yes we all need to make adjustments but it isn't all one way traffic.

We don't have anything like the baggage from the past - to suggest otherwise is nonsense - we don't swagger around because we had an Empire or we stopped Germany taking over Europe twice. You only have to look at Reading and ask why is it that this happens - it has nothing to with racism.

Even if that were all true and applied universally, it still wouldn’t be a justification for not combating racism. But yes, everybody can make changes to help themselves and give others the fairest possible crack.



If that is self-parody, it is brilliant. If it is a lack of self-awareness... still kinda brilliant. Nothing says ‘modern Britain, comfortable in its own skin, shoulders free of chips, at peace with its past, and with a clear vision of its place in the world and future direction’ quite like bringing up the war. Or having a ragged, end-of-the-pier honey monster tribute act as Prime Minister.

Changing tack, this has reminded me of Jeff Taylor. As I mentioned a while ago, I am expanding my news and political commentary diet. I think everybody should check out Jeff’s YouTube channel - I guarantee, whatever your politics, you’ll be gleefully confirmed in your prejudices.

Another false equivalence. Leaving the EU wasn't a matter of overcoming 'challenges' but preferences. I simply preferred not to be ruled by an undemocratic body in another country, and disagree with the concept and ideology of the EU and its leaders.

A young black kid has access to free education until the age of 18. They have access to apprenticeships and training. They have all the tools at their disposal for a good start in life into a career. Racism does not deny them any of that. The challenges they might face come down more to home life, peer pressure, aptitude and the community he/she steps into each morning, which includes a higher rate of single parent households than any other ethnicity. That's before we even talk about culture. None of this is due to racism.


That's a very 'Cathy Newman' response, I expect better from you.



Rightly or wrongly, it's a fact blacks are more likely to be carrying knives or committing crime in London. That's indisputable. The arrest rate of blacks (35 per 1,000) is 3.5 x whites (10 per 1,000) in England/Wales. It's pretty simple: if you're a copper working in a black community in which there are daily stabbings and other criminality committed by mainly young black males, you are going to keep an eye on and check young black males. Yes, innocents will get caught up in this, but what is the alternative?

Perhaps we could copy the US? 'Autonomous Zones' popping up in cities where police are not permitted to enter. It's going REALLY, REALLY well.



Regardless, the point is it doesn't really matter how much virtue signalling is going on - you can only achieve change by raising black communities out of poverty, changing racist minds and by removing the culture of casual criminality, drugs and the lure of a gangster lifestyle over a pretty dull 'normal' working life. Telling every white in the UK just how racist we all are over and over and over and tearing down our history and attacking our police, threatening to "kill all whites" and posting dozens of videos of attacks on lone whites is only creating massive division.

This is a country that should be justifiably proud of itself - its got nothing to do with Empire or wars its about its contribution to the global society - foreign aid c£17bn, one of the most innovative countries on the planet, very diverse culturally - we have an Indian Chancellor and a Pakistani Home Secretary etc.

There is much that is excellent about the UK, I agree. It is my home and I care deeply about it.

However, the concept of national pride is interesting to me. It only works (in any country, realistically) if only look with one eye... or are willing to accept an element of national shame (and who wants that).

Taking pride in or identifying with Shakespeare or Newton or Brunel or Wilberforce or the Beatles is attractive and easy. How then, do We process centuries of antisemitism and homophobia, Matthew Hopkins, slave traders, witch hunters, invading China to force our opium into their markets and the Bullingdon Club? Do we take a ‘no true Scotsman’ attitude and label those things unrepresentative? That rather obliges us not to pick out the worst elements of other countries and cultures and consider them representative of those, for the sake of intellectual rigour and honesty.

Ultimately, we’re not really so very different from anybody else.

This is all true. The concept of British (or American) exceptionalism confuses me - we're obviously not racially superior to anyone else (although some of the posts on the last few pages make me wonder if some folk don't think "we" (I think they meant white people but I'll say British) are. We're quite good at quite a few things and have a pleasant enough little country to live in, in most places. We've had some good moments over the past three or four centuries, in material terms if nothing else, we've had moments when we were powerful but on the other hand we didn't use that power in particularly pleasing ways at times and certainly it didn't elevate the lives of many living here or in our conquered lands. For most of the later 20th century we were a declining power although we projected more power than we actually had through our standing in international bodies like the UN and the EU. But exceptional? Not particularly, not compared to any other country.

I disagree - we are very different why else would a tiny country be so prosperous?

What you cannot do is apply the conventions that were applicable in years gone by to today's cultural environment. We embrace the innovation and progress of the industrial revolution but we accept they had children working in the mills. Some on here are upset that we don't have any coal mines but accept thousands of miners died getting coal out of the ground etc.

Compared to some of the inhuman behaviour of the Socialist Icons - Stalin, Lennin, Mao we are pussycats by comparison.