Answer me this... When will the Global Financial Crisis, Labour circa 2008, and Coronavirus no longer be the fall guys? At what point do the Tories say "this is a problem of our own making" with regards to any future crises in Britain? For a party who preach 'personal repsonsibility', they're bloody terrible at accepting any themselves. Why is it always someone else's fault?

I see the right wing rags are already lining up China as the new 'enemy of the people', and Michel Barnier has been targetted as the UK government's 'patient zero'.

The whole point about mers etc was that drs scientists etc we re very clear that anyone of those viruses could mutate and be much more serious. That is why the 2016 nhs test was based on one of those viruses but with the level of infection and death rate of covid. It was not a case of IF there would be an outbreak but WHEN . The NHS failed that test spectacularly. The government were warned of this and DiD nothing to prepare any contingency plans.

As for the issue if floods. The Government sets standards and guidelines on building. By allowing the building in flood areas they are saying to builders it is Ok to keep building there. Big builders see that as a green light to continue. Then when they flood the government has to then spend a fortune with taxpayers money to increase flood defences.

You me and the rest of the taxpayers are paying a blank cheque in terms of flood defences so builders can make profits.

The government has the ability to control that but is choosing not too. Is it because many building companies fund the Tory party ?

As I mentioned before if the NHS took measure to ensure it was ready for every eventuality you would need to dump the whole GDP of the UK into the NHS every year. Its a judgement call about how you use resources - sometimes you win sometimes you don't. Hindsight is a great thing. The outbreak could have been another SARS with very limited impact.

So if the construction businesses cannot get planning permission then the risk of flooding is negated to zero - so whilst council a big chunk of which will be Labour allow building in flood plains then you can hardly blame the builders from doing just that. Then you have the consumers who buy these houses - surely they also have a responsibility for their actions too? In your eyes only the builders are to blame - big business its all their fault - easy to blame them!!

So when the incumbents do it, it's appropriate "fiscal measures," but when your fantasy Labour government do it - it's a magic money tree?

As for the GLOBAL financial crash of 2008 - you know, as does everyone else, that Labour had similar "fiscal measures" to take when that "very unusual set of circumstances" landed; and Alistair Darling is widely recognised as having done a pretty decent of job of getting the big international banks round the table and forcing them to accept measures to mitigate the damage.

You knew all that though - you just insist on behaving like an idiot.

But you are correct about British innovation



Who else would come up with receipt swopping as a practical ruse to dodge taxes, where they band together to swop receipts around to each other.

You do make me laugh tho, I been in amongst it for 40 years, I can name names, what’s your experience of it?

Quote ="IR80"Superblue can get comrades from all other countries with lockdown to start a class action. [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Sued_GodBilly Connolly in lead role again ?[/url'" Good idea , How long till Comrade Suni calls the public sector out on strike then “Volkswagen emissions scandal: class action begins in UK This article is more than 3 months old Class action will focus on whether software fitted to 1.2 million vehicles was designed to defeat clean air laws” https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... gins-in-uk So easy

Quote ="IR80"Superblue can get comrades from all other countries with lockdown to start a class action. [url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Man_Who_Sued_GodBilly Connolly in lead role again ?[/url'" Good idea , How long till Comrade Suni calls the public sector out on strike then “Volkswagen emissions scandal: class action begins in UK This article is more than 3 months old Class action will focus on whether software fitted to 1.2 million vehicles was designed to defeat clean air laws” https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... gins-in-uk So easy

Quote ="Superblue"Good idea , How long till Comrade Suni calls the public sector out on strike then “Volkswagen emissions scandal: class action begins in UK This article is more than 3 months old Class action will focus on whether software fitted to 1.2 million vehicles was designed to defeat clean air laws” https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... gins-in-uk So easy '" [url=https://gettingthedealthrough.com/area/82/jurisdiction/22/class-actions-2020-united-kingdom/Not like The Grundian to get it wrong, is it....[/url [url=https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/commercial-and-group-litigation/group-litigation/Group litigation.... maybe?[/url [url=https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/6-618-0351?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1so easy....![/url

Quote ="Superblue"Good idea , How long till Comrade Suni calls the public sector out on strike then “Volkswagen emissions scandal: class action begins in UK This article is more than 3 months old Class action will focus on whether software fitted to 1.2 million vehicles was designed to defeat clean air laws” https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... gins-in-uk So easy '" [url=https://gettingthedealthrough.com/area/82/jurisdiction/22/class-actions-2020-united-kingdom/Not like The Grundian to get it wrong, is it....[/url [url=https://www.slatergordon.co.uk/commercial-and-group-litigation/group-litigation/Group litigation.... maybe?[/url [url=https://uk.practicallaw.thomsonreuters.com/6-618-0351?transitionType=Default&contextData=(sc.Default)&firstPage=true&bhcp=1so easy....![/url

I completely agree about the way Labour handled the banking crisis - the fall out had to happen at some point. Fortunately for Labour they had gone when the day of reckoning occurred. What I find puzzling is what you expected the coalition to do - carry a huge debt burden indefinitely?

The only good thing about what has happened is that Labour didn't get into power - we would have debt on a scale never seen before. They would have taken this virus scare as an opportunity to re-nationalise as much as possible plus all the other stuff they wanted to do - it would have been eye-watering and it would have had to be paid back at some point and the only realistic way would have been through increased taxation.

Again though - you are describing exactly what the current Govt *are* doing, through the lens of what some scary, dystopic, fantasy Labour Govt *might* do; and I can assure you that private business and the self-employed will, without any shadow of a doubt, see increased taxation to foot the bill for the hard-left socialist interventions of Rishi Sunak. For the next five years at least, the Tories have a baked-in excuse to replace the 'last Labour Government' lie they've been telling about austerity for the previous ten years.

Interesting that you mention "carry a huge debt burden indefinitely? "

The current situation is going to make the crash of 2007 look like a blip, he £billions being used by world governments to try and sure up their economies is just mind boggling.
I wonder whether the front line NHS staff will have their wages frozen or cut, as a reward for literally putting their lives on the line.

Pritti Patel though she was being magnanimous in suggesting that those from outside the UK who are part of the effort to save lives can "stay another 12 months" for being part of the "war" effort.
Those people should, if they want it, be given British citizenship.
The numbers, in the scale of things are miniscule and if anyone has earned the right to live in the UK, those people most certainly have.

It's lucky for her that the opposition is ineffective and that there are more important things for us all to worry about - she's a bloody disgrace to the office that she holds.

No it wont - the 330bn to support business will not cost the government a penny - they are not providing the money just a guarantee to the banks. You try and get one of these loans - unless you are prepared to put your property on the line the banks aren't interested. They will only lend on this scheme if they can't find a way to lend you the money on a different scheme at higher interest rates e.g. increase ID facility.

So we are left with the 80% support which runs for 3 months let's say its 3m at 2,500 a month - £7,500 times 5 million is c£40bn let's say it lasts 6 months and its 10 million c£160bn given Labour were happy to spend c£250bn on its green policy doesn't look crippling to me. There will be delay in meeting VAT and PAYE payments but that will be caught up within 18 months. The challenge in all of this and the unknown is how long it will take for normal business to resume and will the government extend the 80% longer?

I completely agree about the nursing staff - they should be encourage to stay given the heroic efforts they have made.

I cannot see an elongated period of austerity to be an option at the end of this - increased taxation across the board will be needed - CT revenues will be well down as will VAT receipts etc.

People talk about revisionist history, this is revisionist future.

Will Rishi's splurge have to be paid back, and if so, how do you think it will be paid back?

It will but through higher taxation - as would have been the case if Labour would have been in charge.

What, even the swarthy European ones?!

I can see the attraction now: "You know all that hateful, xenophobic stuff we said before? We didn't really mean it - so please stay and risk your lives for another 12 months, then when all this over, we'll go back to all that hostile environment stuff again, and you can feck off back where you came from. Ok?"

Unless they have the relevant 'points'. Don't forget about points based immigration scheme!

The absolute MINIMUM they should have at this point in time is UK citizenship (assuming they want it).
The offer of "an extra 12 months" in the UK, is just down right insulting and if that is the best that they can expect, they may be better placed in going to help their "own" back in the country of birth.
Clearly in the eyes of Patel, they aren't deserving of anything other than a pat on the head.

The double standards of Boris pseudo clapping their efforts on the steps of No 10, having screwed them over for the preceding 10 years, makes my blood boil and yet, enough of the nation backed the Tories, unbelievable.

Patel is an utter disgrace, who the hell does she think she is.
A racist that believes in hanging and forced repatriation - it's just a pity that we cant get rid of her

With every day that passes it becomes more clear that the Government are absolutely clueless what to do. They think throwing money at it will cure all problems. The trouble is that the guarantee provided for loans will only apply to companies considered to be viable, unfortunately most are currently closed down therefore the banks are reluctant to lend. The second problem is the fact it is a loan and not many businesses want to take on further debt at this time. The obvious result will be the failures of both large and small businesses with the impact on the economy and most importantly unemployment.
The second false economy is that with the obvious failure to test means that they are placing increased pressure on the NHS because staff are in isolation when they could be cleared and returned to work.
The lack of testing will not go away only yesterday Gove produced another false claim regarding the lack of chemicals which was debunked by the industry. We are all suffering semi imprisonment because the government do not want to test under the guise of protecting the NHS rather than saving the government. They will continue to be compared to Germany on testing which unfortunately they cannot answer.
There will be a report but this will not be for many years at which point they know their failures will be exposed. I expect this report to be buried if ready before the next election or delayed until after.
It’s bad when Donald Trump is criticising our actions.

Quote ="wrencat1873"Interesting that you mention "carry a huge debt burden indefinitely Pritti Patel though she was being magnanimous in suggesting that those from outside the UK who are part of the effort to save lives can "stay another 12 months" for being part of the "war" effort. Those people should, if they want it, be given British citizenship. The numbers, in the scale of things are miniscule and if anyone has earned the right to live in the UK, those people most certainly have. .'" 4 drs dead so far Habib Zaidi https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-52040991… Adil El Tayar https://theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/ ... oronavirus… Amged El-Hawrani https://theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/ ... m-covid-19… Dr Alfa Saadu And a nurse Thomas Harvey. https://www.ilfordrecorder.co.uk/news/h ... -1-6587770 Something for the xenophobes to reflect on

Quote ="wrencat1873"Interesting that you mention "carry a huge debt burden indefinitely Pritti Patel though she was being magnanimous in suggesting that those from outside the UK who are part of the effort to save lives can "stay another 12 months" for being part of the "war" effort. Those people should, if they want it, be given British citizenship. The numbers, in the scale of things are miniscule and if anyone has earned the right to live in the UK, those people most certainly have. .'" 4 drs dead so far Habib Zaidi https://bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-52040991… Adil El Tayar https://theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/ ... oronavirus… Amged El-Hawrani https://theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/ ... m-covid-19… Dr Alfa Saadu And a nurse Thomas Harvey. https://www.ilfordrecorder.co.uk/news/h ... -1-6587770 Something for the xenophobes to reflect on

What Sal Paradise missed with his lazy caricature is the more realistic and dramatic implication of what would have happened if Labour had won the election and Corbyn was PM.

Labour would still be in the 6 month period of renegotiating the trade deal with the EU before putting it to a referendum with Remain as the alternative on the ballot paper. When this pandemic hit, they would have agreed to extend Article 50 by a year.

Potentially if both the UK and the EU were savaged by a recession in 2021, they would extend by another year.

The timescale for the trade negotiation and the referendum would probably be 2022. Labour would also have reduced the voting age to 16 by then as that was in their manifesto.

Forecast two years forward, with all the extra cohorts of people who were only aged 10 at the time of the last referendum now being able to vote, with older generations dying off (including at a high level during the 2020 pandemic) and you would probably have a Remain vote in 2022.

That would have been the most dramatic implication of covid following a Labour victory.

On nationalisation, the interesting point is how it will start to enter more into Conservative ideology - they have already effectively nationalised the rail networks. I think the Conservatives will come not from the angle of public v private but from British owned v foreign owned, particularly in the context of China. There's a big backlash in Australia right now against Chinese firms buying up Aussie companies that are in distress as a result of lockdowns. It will not go down well in some conservative circles, who were already spooked by the security issues of Chinese ownership of aspects of our energy network and Huawei 5G, if the knock on effect of a virus which started in China, leads to a large increase in Chinese ownership of UK industry. It's not like the Cameron/Osborne clique are in charge, who hailed these kind of takeovers as evidence that "the UK is good at attracting foreign investment".

There is also a EU/Brexit angle to this. The Cummings approach of wanting to ensure the UK was separated from the EU state aid regime in order to provide UK government funding to support struggling industries in the north/midlands regions that would be banned in the EU is unlikely to change as a result of this, I think it will be strengthened. A lot of energy and transport operators in the UK are owned by European firms - often state owned(!) - and these are in sectors where consumers get bad outcomes. So I wouldn't be surprised if they look at this and say hold on, privatisation isn't supposed to be about letting European state owned firms use UK consumers to earn excess profits to subsidise their own domestic consumers.

So I expect a lot more state activism on this front from the Conservative government. They won't approach it ideologically in the same way that Corbyn would, and it may be more about the UK government blocking takeovers and providing support and buying stakes in firms than compulsory purchase orders, but I am pretty confident in predicting now that by the time the next election comes around, the share of UK state ownership of UK industry will be higher than it has been since the early privatisations in the 1980s. And I think this will be something that attracts support from both Labour and Conservative voters.

Most people can see why we need some form of border control - perhaps we should be keeping out Albanian gangsters, Asian drug lords, Russian Oligarths etc. I don't think anyone begrudges the NHS the staff it needs - it was no surprise that as soon as the pound fell against the € there was an exodus of workers!!

You can’t keep out Russian oligarchs because without them where would the Conservatives get their funding and the London housing market would collapse.

With regards your last argument I think most Europeans left not because of the exchange rate but how unwelcome they were made to feel by the government after Brexit.

I think you are being very selective/lazy in your analysis - under Labour we would never have got another referendum we just would not have been allowed to leave. You know as well I do the deal negotiated by Labour would be so close to existing terms as to be embarrassing to offer to a public vote as an alternative to remain. It would possibly have caused civil unrest leading up to a vote. Now if Labour offered their deal against leave no deal it would sort this once and for all but we know they didn't have the balls for that so even if we voted again to stay it would simply be delaying what has already been a festering boil for decades.

The government will hand back the rail franchises by the end of this year and that will that - I don't see any future intention to bring further services back into public ownership - I would be interested in where you think the government will intervene? I could see them blocking lucrative sales of UK assets to undesirables and I can see more restrictions on rich Russian types - but if you that you run the risk of UK firms being unable to procure non UK assets?

Time will tell if your Socialist utopia come to pass - under Starmer I see a clear out of the hard left especially in the shadow cabinet and I see the likes of Milne, Formby and a reduction in the influence of Lansdown and McClusky and a definite shift to the centre. There is one big bonus we wont have to listen to more drivel from John McDonald as he tries to present an acceptable face to his extreme Marxist leanings.

We must agree to differ

The Tories will always find funding - if not the Russians it will come from somewhere else. Its supporters are the ones that really generate a lot of money