that's a contradiction

How so?

The thing about being brainwashed is you never actually [iknow[/i you've been brainwashed. Were this not the case, brainwashing would be hugely ineffective.

So, we can say kirkstaller is brain washed, but we can't really prove it and he won't know he's brain washed, even though he is, because if he knew he had been brain washed he wouldn't be brain washed?

I think you've just summed up religious fundamentalism in one sentence

So could we [iall[/i be brainwashed?

evidence suggests it's more likely in your case

explain to us how you can believe something that has no factual basis?

Nothing like loading the question.

I don't want to go over old ground but I consider there to be a factual basis for my beliefs, as well as a spiritual basis.

yes, and as has been said, that is the evidence of brainwashing that we can all see.

We could, but it's infinitely more likely in those who believe stuff that flies in the face of logic and empirical evidence.

Factual is probably the wrong word, as what constitutes a 'FACT' is, as these boards regularly show us, entirely subjective. It would be more accurate to say that there is no [ievidential[/i basis for your beliefs.

Again, I would disagree and say that there is ample evidence.

brainwa.... forget it.

So, no need for the old 'faith' malarky, then?

Excellent. You won't have any problem linking to the peer-reviewed papers and/or scientific journals that support your claims, then.

No, you need faith in Jesus in order to be saved.

Are you saying evidence only comes in the forms mentioned above?

that's the commonly accepted definition

It can come in many forms but pointing to something like the Turin Shroud is certainly not evidence that it once contained Jesus. All it is, is evidence of a piece of old cloth with an unusual stain on it, that if you were to squint in a strange way, you might "see" an image that resembles an arcane representation of what someone thought Christ may have looked like.

For scientific purposes, yes.

maybe he's referring to the episode of Only Fools and Horses where the statue cries, was a miracle!

Just because kirkstaller (in common with a lot of other people) has his belief, that doesn't necessarily mean he is brainwashed.
He could just as easily be deluded, irrational, blinkered, illogical, needy or just plain wrong ... all without having been brainwashed.

well someone appears to have a sense of humour. I've just been informed that my latest follower on twitter is:


Jews for Jesus

should be fun

Some years ago, I had a legacy from an elderly great aunt in Plymouth. The legacies, before the estate was shared out, included one to Bibles for Israel.

Go on, then, just post ONE piece of your "ample evidence", to be going on with. Then we can have some fun.

Of course, you can't, so will instead either retort with some pathetic rhetorical device, or more probably as usual pretend that I have not asked you anything, in the adult equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears, or hiding under the bed.