Hamas refuse to recognise the state of Israel under the current borders, they have have never directly said they want to wipe Israel off the map, that was the loon from Iran about 13 years ago.

As for the Russia problem, I find all the sabre rattling pointless. Of course this was Russia, but there's absolutely nothing we can do about it, and Putin knows it. The uk has to face up to being a global small fry.

Incorrect. Hamas' own charter called for the destruction of Israel and the killing of all Jews until very recently.


Rubbish. Sabre rattling is verbals or a display of military assets. Assassination attempts using an illegal nerve agent on British soil amounts to rather more than that.

Or do you think the UK and the world should sit by compliantly while Russia use radioactive materials and (illegal) chemical weapons on foreign soil? And almost kill a British police officer? Actually if you're a Corbynite you probably do.

The West has trodden softly around this issue for too long, but if you haven't noticed we are being unequivocally supported by our friends and allies (including the EU). Russia is isolated and more than a little surprised by the support for the UK.

There is something we can do about it. Russians despise weakness and respect strength. But what they value above all else are their roubles. We increase sanctions, seize assets and expel key Russians, including diplomats and anyone connected to Putin. Wealthy Russians have billions tied up in London. Hit them in the pocket and they'll soon start complaining to their friend at the top.

Peter Hitchens, with whom I have little fellow feeling ordinarily, was good on this stuff on QT last night; he was keen to point out that what we're railing against here is a small cadre of gangsters who surround Putin, because he's created a situation in which to be mega-wealthy in Russia requires you to be his friend and ally; so I highly doubt that the vast majority of Russians can be categorised as despising weakness and respecting strength - or of only caring about roubles - what they probably want is social justice, fairness, and to stop being ripped off by the kleptocratic Putin regime.

So I say again - if we all agree that the city of London is awash with dirty Russian money, why have the Tories resisted the Magnitsky powers that could freeze and seize those assets and make their lives very uncomfortable? And why is there a wall of noise defending Russian donations to the Tory party, when we have the wife of a Putin minister paying hundreds of thousands to hobnob with the Foreign Secretary and the Defence Minister?

The Tories are keen to round on Corbyn for suggesting that international protocols should be followed to prove Moscow's involvement in the Salisbury case - but the alternative is the unedifying and embarrassing spectacle of a kangaroo court, proclaiming guilt and issuing sanctions, before the police and security services have done their work; meanwhile, Boris Johnson is happy to liken Putin to Hitler - which is deeply insulting to a nation who lost 25 million people fighting against Hitler, and grist to the mill for Moscow to spin this whole thing as a slight on all Russians - which only strengthens their position.

Statesmanship is the order of the day here - and our Government seems incapable of that; aside from the walking disaster area that is Boris Johnson, we have the Sec of Defence saying the Russians should "shut up and go away," and the inappropriately named party chairman on Question Time last night, saying that there is "strong evidence that Moscow is responsible" for the attack, then admitting that he hasn't read the briefings. It's a shambles.

So on the one hand you think most Russians want justice and fairness, and on the other you assume all Russians in London are corrupt and want to seize assets and make their lives uncomfortable? They're not all guilty of corruption and not all in bed with Putin, hence why so many display the inconvenient habit of dropping dead.

As I said before, the rules surrounding donations are clear. Unless the person isn't on the Electoral Register, or the funds are proven to have been obtained by illegal means, there is no problem. People of all sorts of origin donate to all parties. So the wife of an Russian ex-minister donated? How do you think Putin views Russian citizens who moved to the UK, most likely became British Citizens, and are donating to the UK government? As you said, oligarchs in Russia tend to be in his circle. Those living elsewhere are often doing so for good reason.

Magnitsky has only been in place for 12 months. There are investigations in progress but it seems early to be expecting huge results. Due process must be followed.


Labourite rant over? It can't be that much of a kangaroo judgement or shambles when so many other countries are supporting us - indeed the EU has just stated their 'unqualified solidarity' and withdrawn its ambassador to Russia. Various countries are considering expelling Russian diplomats. Such actions are not taken lightly, and point to a successful investigation and highly conclusive evidence.

But of course, you know better.

The time for soft talk is over. So the Russians are 'offended', bless their delicate little souls. Who cares? Screw them. It's about time they were stood up to. You call Putin's regime kleptocratic yet you want to tiptoe around them? Is that you Jeremy?

Where did I say that they all were? I very specifically referred to a small cadre of gangsters who surround Putin - and made a clear distinction between them, and ordinary Russian people. I couldn't have been clearer about that.



And as I said before, that's a mealy-mouthed Boris Johnson defence, which holds no water; if there was a genuine desire to be tough on dirty Russian money, the Tories would be hell-bent on removing any whiff of corruption - but they're not. And it goes deeper than that, since the money that comes here to be laundered and spent has created a small industry for property developers, fund managers and wealth management types, many of whom are natural Tory supporters and its most generous donors.



Your party has actively opposed full Magnitsky powers though - which the US introduced in 2012; you will of course recall Hugh Powell entering no 10 with a list of responses to the invasion of Ukraine, specifically ruling out trade sanctions or denying access to London's financial system; I wonder why?



That being the case, why the rush to judgement? You're all over the place on this one - you tried (unsuccessfully) to label me as xenophobic a couple of days ago - and now you're displaying exactly that kind of behaviour yourself; remember, this is not about 'Russians' - this is about *some* Russians - primarily state actors and those close to them - and the best way to deal with them, surely, is to follow the due process of international protocols, provide proof that is beyond reasonable doubt, and then use all the powers we have that will hurt Putin and his people (i.e proper Magnitsky powers, instead of the Tory Magnitsky-Lite version) - I don't see what's difficult or controversial about that, and it makes much more sense, as it removes the ability for the Kremlin to spin this as further evidence of the West demonising Russia, which will galvanise support for Putin and further embolden him.

The last time we allowed parliament to drag us into a conflict based on less then complete information, things didn't turn out so well - so yes, I'm completely lock-step with Corbyn on this one; he was right the last time.

Really? Unless of course your name is Jeremy Corbyn and in which case you are a traitor for not condemning Russia. Why should due process be followed and international law be adhered to when its easier to just blame russia even though you have no evidence and you can claim "its probably russia".

Regards

King James

Your hypocrisy is laughable. Well it would be if if you had a grasp of the potential severity of the situation.

A team of up to ten experts from the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), which polices the prohibition of chemical weapons, visited the Ministry of Defence's scientific research facility at Porton Down on 18 March. They'll try to work out how samples of the nerve agent used in the attack can be transported abroad, so they can be tested in independent labs overseas. It's thought the results could take at least two weeks.

I am touched the PM is showing more concern for a Russian traitor & a Russian citizen than she did for the families & friends of what at the time was thought to be around 100 killed in badly maintained block of flats. I doubt many of the poor buggers in Grenfell funded the Tory party or were vote winners.

Hang on, either London is 'awash' with dirty Russian money or it isn't? You talk about Putin's gang and Russian money in London. You do realise many Russians who live in London and have invested massive sums are far from popular in Moscow? Are they all corrupt? Some? Who exactly? You're going in circles.

Magnitsky is in place and investigations are underway. Perhaps we should just let the police do their job.


What are you talking about? Rules on donations are clear. Furthermore, each party appoints a legally liable treasurer to assess and judge on donations - do you think they're likely to accept dodgy donations? If any are found to have slipped the net, they will be returned.

Unless you automatically assume all Russian money is dirty of course?

A Tory MP tabled the Magnitsky amendment, which was voted in unanimously. It has sufficient powers. More noise about nothing.


What are these 'international protocols' you keep banging on about? Bringing the OPCW in to investigate? Check. Done. Unless, of course, you actually listen to the twaddle coming out of Moscow, that is?

A lot of noise about nothing again. The UK authorities have carried out an initial investigation, which is ongoing. The OPCW is carrying out its own investigation. Russia will see the results of the OPCW report. They are not entitled to receive a sample from the UK - what would be the point, they would absolutely deny it was theirs anyway. Let them wait.

Ah yes, another glorious achievement of Mr Blair and New Labour.

You think this will lead to conflict? Don't be ridiculous.

No evidence? Excuse me while I contain myself.



I'm sure the government have taken such strong steps on the basis of 'no evidence'. I'm sure the EU and the USA would be throwing their weight behind us on the basis of 'no evidence'. I'm sure the police, forensics teams and the world renowned chemical weapons experts at Porton Down have found 'no evidence'.

Stop the whole thing, Lebron James at RLFans wants to see the evidence.

Deary me, loony leftism at its absolute finest. Comrade Cob is that you?

Yes, well done. That is correct. Award yourself a lollipop.


Must be because they were predominantly dark-skinned immigrants on benefits, eh? Is that what you want to hear?

"Iraq has weapons of mass destruction, we have seen the evidence".

Regards

King James

Your guilabilty is also laughable, the pm is rightfully concerned that an attempted assassination has taken place by a foreign power on British soil. If you recall when litvinenko was killed the radioactive trail went all the way back to Moscow , still the Russians denied it. Grenfell was a disaster, but the way the Labour Party is portraying it ,you would think that Teresa may had set fire to the place by herself. The victims of Grenfell quite rightly are being looked after, many staying in 4 star hotels with pocket money at £300!per week. You should await the results of the Grenfell enquiry before judging anybody. It may well turn out to be a construction industry failure. For instance who specified the cladding. Or did the builder just please himself.
I note the snow flake guardian readers have already condemned the enquiry, because a white person is leading it.
I note your concern regarding Teresa may, did you also express concern when jezza claimed solidarity with the IRA .

This is cronus you are talking about. Hes often hypocritical. It all depends on what hes read in the daily mail on that particular day

Regards

King james

Whats that got do with it? George Bush also threw his weight behind it. As you said in a post a few posts up, if the USA throw their weight behind something it must be true.

Regards

King James

So, in your learned opinion, is there likely to be solid evidence or not? Bearing in mind chemical weapons experts have been analysing the substance and the victims, and bearing in mind intelligence agencies have been sharing the results of that analysis (and presumably other details of the investigation), which has led to the EU (!) and the USA taking such a strong stance against Russia, including withdrawing the EU ambassador to Moscow and various countries moving to expel Russian diplomats?

All, presumably, on a whim?

Basing your argument on 'just because' backed up with Dubya's dodgy dossier and Blair's poor judgement really does smack of desperation. Your Comrade Cob blinkers need a rest.

PS haven't read the Mail in many years.

Classic.



Evidence? The demonisation of one person by the tax dodging Murdoch press doesn't count.

Me: Your honour, Cronus off of RLfans killed my cat and gave my wife a funny look.

Judge: Do you have evidence of these heinous crimes?

Me: Yes - but you can't see it.

Judge: Is it solid evidence?

Me: Yes, and all my friends agree.

Judge: Take him down...

[url=https://grenfellsupport.org.uk/money-and-benefits/It's really not difficult to find.[/url


And that's on top of the £5,500 minimum payment to each household which lost their home, which is fair enough. Hundreds of millions have been spent to try and rehouse those affected, and as of last week around 24 households or individuals were still in hotels.

If that's the very best you can do I think I can confidently chalk that one up as a win.

Money to spend on food in London is not pocket money.

You will have to expand on your classic comment. Most disasters / major accidents are subject to an enquiry. Quite obviously so remedial action can take place. Eg Kings Cross fire disaster, major changes were instigated regarding fire alarms, fire protection. Even fire fighters radios which did not work underground.
Murdoch press?. Grenfell Tower support group site actually,in fact one of the problems the council is facing is many of the survivors are living in serviced apartments. They don’t want to leave, can’t blame them really. To try tempt them to leave the council have offered to pay the first years rent and utilities in the new council houses. The government is footing the bill for all this. Horrible tories throwing money at people,disgraceful. We will gloss over cases coming out of fraud relating to Grenfell. Possibly because everybody will blame it on Murdoch/ daily mail etc etc.

Is Asda really so much more expensive in London?

Look, I'm not going vilify the survivors, but let's not pretend they've been thrown on the street without a bean. £300 per person for food & drink is plenty to live comfortably. My entire weekly shop for a family of 3 averages around £150 plus small top-ups.

It's nowhere near a win; you call for due process and the rule of law in one breath, then brush all that aside when it comes to the Salisbury case - and absolutely refuse to acknowledge the hypocrisy of the Tory party - rattling sabres about Putin on the one hand, but balls deep into Russian money on the other.

You're all over the place today - go have a lie down.

Exactly. Construction is my profession so I have a particular interest. I read some initial findings on Grenfell inquiry this week which are damning of the whole construction industry & process, & are spot on in my view. This is nearly a year after the tragedy. The Salisbury tragedy should be afforded the same level of scrutiny before jumping to convenient conclusions.