I am also of the opinion that anyone who isn't medically qualified, is a prick if he insists on using the title Dr.

And don't get me started on those who have been awarded honorary doctorates

Many years back I was waiting for a bus when bloke next to me announced totally out of the blue, as an opening line to the conversation that he was "A Sir", I managed to show a awesome amount of disinterest in that revelation and he promptly shut up.

1. It would depend entirely who it was, and my personal estimation of them. When I have met Geoff Boycott, I have always made a point of calling him Sir Geoff. I think the polite thing to do would be a bit like meeting your bird's dad -it would be "Mr. " which if he wasn't a tit should lead immediately to a "call me Fred" reply. Again, of those I've met, very few revel in or want to be called by their title, but where a nobody is speaking to a kegend then the alternatives seem, to me, inappropriate. Say you were a reporter for the Wigan Herald and you were interviewing Sir Alex Ferguson. You never met before. I would say that calling him "Alex" unbidded would be plain damn rude. Calling him "Mr. Ferguson" would be plain silly, as you are being politely deferential, by using a formal title, but you are using the wrong one. I would feel perfectly comfortable sticking with "Sir Alex".

2. He would be a first class knob.

3. No, and no.

Anyone who stick post nominals on a letter head, business card or signature block is ish. Unless they are a professional person (Dr, lawyer, accountant etc...) doing it in the course of their work. Even then, the 'done thing' is to drop everything but the highest qualification.

It's cringeworthy when your local estate agent / car salesman hands you a business card and they have put B.A. (Hons) after their name.

This. My old boss was knighted many years ago and said to us all at the time "I wonder who the first person to call me Sir Richard will be. And it better not be anyone working in this office". Similarly most of the Sirs I've met through my work have gone along with the above. Sir on first meeting then first name after that. Not had the misfortune yet to meet a Kingsley.

One of my customers is a Lady (cousin of the Queen and great,great,great granddaughter of Victoria). I get around the m'lady bollox by only talking to her husband (a commoner), who likes to be called Mark

Is that his name?

No, he's actually a dog with a hare lip

No, Murray shouldn't get a knighthood or any other honour. Yet. I don't think sports men & women should get honours until they've retired. For instance Jessica Ennis has a CBE, given primarily for her gold at the 2012 Olympics. So what happens if she wins gold again at the next one? And maybe another in a different event? The same applies to Murray, if he gets a knighthood for this Wimbledon win what does he get if he wins it again?
As for businessmen, well in some cases it might be justified but in general I'm against it as I think it often just goes to those who know the right people.
As for civil servants, it's a joke that completely devalues the honours. Civil servants shouldn't just get one simply for doing their job and because they're next in line, they should be the same as everyone else. If they make some kind of outstanding contribution then fine, but it shouldn't just be a perk of the job.

I like the honours system, I think it's a good way of the state recognising people and their contribution. I just wish it was better and more focused upon normal people rather than celebrities, current sportspeople and civil servants. I always remember seeing a programme on TV a few years ago that was primarily about the Queen but it showed her giving out some honours and had a quick piece with a farmer from Wales who was getting an MBE I think. He was an old guy who had been farming for about 45 years and came across as simply a quiet, gentle old man. He was literally in tears just talking about it. That's who should be getting these honours instead of, for instance, Rob Brydon.

Ferguson was knighted in 1999 - the year that he first won the Champions League.

Compare that with Brain Clough (two EC wins with Nottingham Forest in the late 70's, an achievement far greater than Ferguson's win with Man United), he was only given an OBE in 1992.

Bob Paisley. Won 3 EC's with Liverpool. Was given an OBE the year he retired.

Bill Shankly was given an OBE 4 months after he retired.

Given that others were given far less for far more, and the general abuse that was dished out by Ferguson after he'd been knighted, that should be a general warning not to give the highest awards out to people who are still operating in their field.

I think that was just a rumour on Twitter. Some journo or other later tweeted that he'd asked Murray and he'd said that it wasn't the case.

I don't agree with the honours system (as it stands) at all, so I wouldn't call anyone 'Sir xxx' whether I was meeting them for the first time or not. Incidentally, I wouldn't call my bird's dad 'Mr xxx' either. One can be polite without being deferential.



I'd say that would depend on what the protocol is for reporters interviewing football managers. If it would be acceptable for him to call David Moyes 'David' or Steve Bruce 'Steve', then there's no reason he shouldn't call Alex Ferguson 'Alex'. No person suddenly becomes more deserving of respect than another because they've been handed some arbitrary title by the government/head of state.

:3n0re05x


Er, he's already an OBE

:3n0re05x
I'd have a fair bet that in time she is a certainty for a Dame Jess. And that would be great.

:3n0re05x
See my earlier post, you're missing the point entirely. The recognition is for what you've done. Surely you can understand why Hillary, if he'd climbed Everest twenty more times, would not have got twenty more gongs? Or would you be puzzled by why there would not at all have been the same fuss about him doing it again, and again?

:3n0re05x
Tend to agree, especially as there are professional lobbying firms that exist to advise on and prepare for and assist making applications (yes anyone can apply or be put forward)
eg [url=http://www.awardsintelligence.co.uk/featuresdetail.asp?page=1408&gclid=CJO7_6DMpLgCFXQftAodrTkAMw:3n0re05xthis lot[/url:3n0re05x

:3n0re05x
I can see your point, but don't entirely agree, though I have never liked Buggins' turn systems. I think the common thread between civil service awards and sportsmen awards and many others is that of doing a great service for the country. The principle is OK but I'm not convinced it is properly applied.


But in fact a huge number of your "ordinary people" do get honours. It's just that apart from maybe a paragraph in their local papers, no media takes any interest in 99% of them. Not sure what Brydon has done wrong to single him out, but I suppose his award did come soon after he'd presented the Queen's Jubilee bash. Maybe Brenda had a word?

Does your missus know you've got a bird?

Strictly need to know, that, my fishy friend.

Kenny Dalglish MBE. Ian Rush MBE. Steven Gerrard MBE. Bob Paisley OBE. Bill Shankly OBE.

Sir Matt Busby. Sir Alex Ferguson. Ryan Giggs OBE. David Beckham OBE.

Do you get the feeling that either there are some Man United supporters in the machinery that gives out honours, or are Man United simply better at asking for them?

Or is it that the attitude to handing out honours for sporting achievements is different now than it was previously and that, whether we like it or not, coincides with a different era in terms of footballing success?

The one United honour you've cited from an earlier era is Busby, who was knighted after the European Cup win that was after Munich – a link, not least in terms of popular emotion.

Except that you don't explain how, in your example, you achieve this "polite without deferential" trick. How would that first conversation go, then, so as not to offend your personal rules against deference"? Let's call her dad Wayne Smith, but all his mates call him Wazza, and she calls him "dad". What is your opening line, then?

I think the concept of being deferential is one which has been largely lost as politeness becomes increasingly a thing of the past, and selfishness and thoughtlessness increase. One well-known example of this is younger people simply not understanding how bloody rude and offensive it can be for, say, a nurse in hospital to address an eldery patient she has never met before by his or her first name. The elderly patient is from a different era, may be quite upset and feel disrespected by being called "Elsie" or whatever by someone they don't know. As ever, it just needs a little thought and consideration for the person you're talking to's feelings, and a little less on your personal "principles".

The pretty easy answer is to be polite and use the formal title before you find out what they prefer you to use, and I see nothing problematic about doing that.



"acceptable" to whom? This is a thing just between the two individuals. Disagree that the relevant thing is "protocol", this is all about personal relationships which have to be built. If you were a newbie reporter not personally known to these managers then IMHO pitching in calling them by first names makes you a plank, and comes across as a desperate effort to imply they are your mates, and big yourself up to the audience. Protocol would be more applicable to formal situations, like standing in a line to meet the Queen, when clearly you're never likely to become bessie mates and probably will never speak again.

You are also introducing "more deserving" of respect, which I'm not sure was the discussion. But in terms of respect, certainly not every person on the planet is equally deserving of my "respect", in the sense under discussion. It also seems obvious to me that Sir Alex Ferguson (or whoever) does not suddenly become "more" deserving of respect the second he is knighted, that person has earned the level of respect you afford them, assuming of course you knew who they were in the first place. It's not the paper title, it's the things achieved, for which it was awarded.

For a start, I assume that my girlfriend would introduce him along the lines of:

"This is my dad, Wayne."

Even if that wasn't the case and she omitted his name, I would smile (not in an "I'm lng your daughter" sort of way), extend my hand and say,

"Hello, Wayne, nice to meet you."

If you think that is impolite, then we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I don't see how it could be further away from impolite.



Well, for a start, there's a big difference between a work and a social setting. I would call [iany[/i client (or patient, if I was in that profession), regardless of age, Mr or Mrs whatever until invited to do otherwise. But in a social setting, I'd be more likely to behave in the manner I have described above.



At a press conference, do the reporters say 'David' or 'Steve' when they're asking a question, or do they say 'Mr Moyes' and 'Mr Bruce'? If it's the former (I genuinely don't know), then there's no reason on Earth for them to have to call Fergie 'Sir Alex'.



I don't think so, if everyone else in the press conference is using first names. It's not like they'd be calling him 'Dave' or 'Moyesey' (or whatever). You'd come across as a bigger plank not following what everyone else was doing. The other issue is that respect should be afforded both ways. If David Moyes can expect a 'Mr Moyes' until he says otherwise, then Bob Carolgees of the Salford Echo can expect a 'Mr Carolgees'.



But there are people out there who have achieved just as much in their particular field (which is probably a lot less glamorous) who don't have the prestige of an inflated title. Why should a man who has made a career out of shltty electronics get a 'Sir Alan', whilst the nurse who has provided palliative care to countless patients gets a plain old 'Ethel'?

Even worse, he's Lord Sugar now.

Don't get me started on Lord Archer, how on earth did he a) deserve a knighthood, b) deserve ennoblement and c) keep his title despite his despicable acts?

The French sorted a lot of the politeness bit of titles back in the revolution, when Monsieur (my lord) became the default title for all men.

Would I greet a bishop as "Your Grace"?
Nope.

He's a Baron.

I think it was a mix up. The Govt were on a health kick, suggested a Bar on Sugar and somehow that got messed up in a Governmental edition of Chinese whispers and Sugar ended up in the House of Lords as a result.

Alf Ramsey wins the World Cup in 66. Gets knighted in 66.
Jock Stein wins the European Cup in 1967. Gets a CBE in 1970
Matt Busby wins the EC in 68. Gets Knighted in 68

John Barnes wins the league with Liverpool in 1998. Gets an MBE in 1998.
Bryan Robson gets the OBE in 1990 when he had 2 FA Cups in his cabinet.

There just seems to be a disparity with the honours that are quickly thrown out to Manchester United managers when they win the European Cup which other managers haven't even received after winning the EC two or three times.

Personally I think the honours system is a load of BS anyway. I think both Busby and Fergie deserve their knighthoods (although I disagree strongly with Fergie getting it straight away in 99). But seeing lightweights like Brooking and Bobby Robson receive knighthoods when giants like Shankly, Paisley and Stein receive lesser awards shows what a nonsense the system is.

Paul Elliot, Ron Greenwood and Craig Brown are CBE's.

It think you'd have better luck arguing that there was a West Ham bias...
Mind to get an honour you need to be British(ish)

..

but it could be hard ..




I think it has a fair chance of being [iconsidered[/i impolite by Wayne, and that's my point. Wayne should be the one who gives you the nod to address him informally.


Sadly though as I mentioned many doctors, nurses etc., don't. Also, meeting Wayne isn't exactly a "social setting", it's more on the lines of a formal setting. If it was me, I'd tend to get in first with "Call me Ferocious", but if you presumed then I'd consider you presumptuous. But as you obviously wouldn't care, we'll leave that one.


No, I think I got this one 100% right. And unless Sir Alex, or whoever, actually KNEW the reporter (and they obviously get to know them) they would not be likely to use their name at all.


He shouldn't. Lord Sugar would be correct. "Alan" would be rude. You don't know him.

She shouldn't. It would (most likely) be "Mrs ...Whatever". Or "Nurse.. Whatever". Or just "Nurse". "Ethel" would be rude. You don't know her.

They still give honours to foreigners. Wenger, Zola, Gerrard Houllier have received honours. Pele received a knighthood, he just cannot use the title Sir.

West Ham received an abundance of honours because of the world cup winners. Can't argue with that.

Greenwood received his because he managed England. Trevor Brooking, IMO, because he's a mediocre FA man and the FA are the main body who will advise on possible recipients.