I think you are wrong with the first paragraph but spot on with the second.

Anyone who doesn't think the EU is the ultimate Big Brother with the most protectionist attitude of any major organisation then they are blind to the real EU.

Nobody can deny the handling of the earlier stages of the pandemic have been a disgrace - Boris and his cronies were too slow, weak and lacked any kind of coherent strategy. That can also be levelled at the NHS too.

The EU is protectionist externally, in the same way as the US and other major economies. However, it has cut protectionism internally among member states substantially. So we gave up the external protection and internal ease of access to a very large and nearby market. You can make the small and nimble argument for new trade deals but because we have have gone full open doors/low tariffs for imports globally we haven’t got much to offer in trade negotiations. Why would other countries offer us better access when we have already given away the farm? We definitely can’t be accused of selfishly protecting our economic interests - whether that is down to generosity or stupidity is a matter of opinion.

Brexit wasn’t driven by economics though. A country is more than just its GDP, and I accept that the benefits, although intangible, are nonetheless real for many people. Unfortunately for me, it is stuff that I don’t value much personally and I don’t think is very healthy for us nationally, in an opiate of the masses kind of way.

I doesn't take a huge leap of faith to see a European super state controlled by the likes of Von der Leyen where by the rules are set from the centre by a host of unelected bureaucrats. The EU has been gradually moving from a free trade arrangements to super state. You only have to see the handling of the vaccine program and the impact it has had in France, Germany, Poland etc. A state where the biggest players manipulate the rules to best suit their particular needs.

Perhaps giving up your independence is a situation worth enduring to get access to the EU - you can't have both. Perhaps we need to be able to stand on our own two feet a bit more - it will definitely sharpen up our commercial endeavours over time.

It is possible, and the EU is far from perfect. But we assess both the risk and the hazard differently. I think it is a smaller leap of faith to see this not happening. There are other hazards that concern me more (broadly, a continent-wide rise in far right populism) and that [imight[/i mean that we actually do end up being better off out. However, for now the risk, while bigger than I’d like, remains small and so I didn’t see an urgent need to depart. But we have, so there you go!



Okay, I may genuinely have missed something here. There seems to be some conception that there is a single EU vaccination program, that is to the detriment of efforts in individual member states. That isn’t the case, as I understand it. While national decision makers take advice from the EMA, after regulatory approval for which the EMA is entirely responsible, they make their decisions independently. For example the (imo strange) decisions to suspend use of the AZ vaccine were taken independently in some member states and in not others.



Gosh yes - it’d be terrible to live in a state where the wealthy and powerful exert their influence in pursuit of their best interests, exploiting the poor and disempowered as necessary. Fortunately, we live in the UK - home of fairness, where everybody’s voice weighs equally.






Where do you see the greatest opportunities to sharpen? Why do you think they have been neglected to this point?

This stuff about worries about unelected bureaucrats, a centralised state and powerful actors manipulating the system.

It's amazing, even factoring in the lies that make people think this stuff is true about the EU, and their seemingly permanent myopia that they never take a look around over here and think, "wait a minute...."

Each of the countries within the EU are able to negotiate their own deals and regulations for vaccines , much like we could have blue passports at any time.

The difference is if we don't like it we can change it every 5 years - can't do that with the EU now can we?

You seem to be in a minority of one when it comes to the attitude of the EU - you view is its a welcoming open arrangement that is available to everyone - no protectionism, no real rules of engagement nice free and easy. Perhaps you need to heed you own advise and "wait a minute"

The "protectionism" is ok if you are on the inside and although it's (very) early days, it was a damn sight easier trading (in either direction) as part of the club.
At the moment it's a right mess.
The government will say it's just teething troubles but, we SHOULD have had most of last year to get used to the new arrangements.
As it was, there was no time to properly prepare,. because the deal was only "agreed" at the 11th hour, leaving some businesses and of course most of Ireland (both sides) with serious amounts of unnecessary pain, much of which is still ongoing.

To answer your points:
This country has been debating staying in the EU since Major was in charge - it wasn't a snap decision it was just the government were not prepared to give the population the opportunity to vote on it - Blair promised but never did. If you are going to leave when would you suggest a good time was?

Perhaps to don't see a connection between high levels of vaccination and controllable levels of infection/death. Perhaps its a myth that virtually everywhere in Europe cases are rising except the UK. France-Paris back in lockdown, Croatia 50% increase, Germany doubled in March etc. UK 70% down in March. If the EU only allows dictates the supply of the vaccine and you get idiots like Macron playing politics then it will not end well. There was never any evidence that AZ jab was anymore harmful than a normal vaccine but it was produced by a UK firm so we end up a bonkers situation whereby the EU doesn't want to use the drug but also doesn't want the UK - who have no issues - to use it - what does that tell you about the EU?

Of course but we could have voted in John and Jeremy to shake things up - we can't really do that in the EU can we? If the Germans say jump everybody else simply goes how high - half the members are subsidised they are very unlikely to bite the hand that feed?

Where could we sharpen up - where do you start: Manufacturing, main stream banking, public sector, NHS, environmental etc. Where are we good - innovation, especially military, advertising, commercial banking etc.

Ah we're back to "what about Jeremy Corbyn" again are we.

When will Corbyn ever take responsibility for his disastrous handling of the economy and public services these past ten years, that's what we all demand to know.

Where has anybody suggested the state of the economy has anything to do with Corbyn? Just another one of your miss readings/understanding?

Well yes the EU has elected representatives and delegates with the key players all needing approval from our own elected government and the parliament being directly elected and major decisions requiring vote by the nation states. I do wonder what fantasy world you're talking about half the time.

Again, as if you're really upset about "protectionism" and all you've ever wanted in life is a bit of old liberal laissez-faire free trade. Really? Or is it just something to latch on to to beat the EU?

The world has divided into a number of regional trading blocs, regional because you trade most with those nearest at hand. Those blocs reduce or eliminate trade friction within. They don't massively raise friction externally.

You can believe that the UK is best served living outside this global reality. And I'm sure we could make a go of it as a low tax, low regulation, low pay economy as that's the best way to operate if you decide being inside your bloc isn't for you. (And especially if at the same time you passionately refuse to believe in making the investments which would differentiate us as a high knowledge, high skill, high wage economy).

The low tax and regulation route would work out just fine for some, maybe for you; not so much for the many however.

I dunno, you're the one who keeps mentioning them. Obsessed or deflecting attention, whichever. The reality is they've never been in power so what they would or would not have done is utterly irrelevant.

I would have suggested when we had a plan that could survive the scrutiny of even its own proponents and creators for more than a few weeks. And when adequate preparations were in place. I do have some sympathy people who really wanted to leave the EU because of legitimate anxieties about ever closer political ties to Europe, because all of the prominent figures offering it were/are cartoon-ish gormers.

As somebody with legitimate anxieties about late stage capitalism, inequality and ecological collapse, I feel their pain, having had to pin my hopes on Corbyn. I mean, he meant well from my political POV, but you have to give yourself a chance.

The problem, imo, was that with a clear and specific plan Leave probably doesn’t win the referendum. But without one, and with Johnson, Gove, JRM et al in charge of cobbling something together it was always going to be a mess.



That tells me almost nothing about the EU as a whole. There’s some information about its constituent parts that are in some cases making a bit of a mess of their vaccination programs. AZ is a British-Swedish multinational, with a Swedish chairman and a French-Australian CEO. I did quite a bit of work with them 2015 to 2017 and it did feel a bit more British than Roche and Novartis feel Swiss, for example. But the idea that the EU doesn’t want use their vaccine because it is too British is laughable paranoia. They’re more frustrated that they can’t get enough of it.



I’m not sure that leaving the EU really solves that broad problem. The freedom given by independence is often notional. In theory we’re a sovereign equal with the US but there is a massive power imbalance. It is going to be similar with the EU in some respects. With more resentment being stoked, admittedly.



Some of that I agree with. The simplicity of the NHS concept offers impressive value for the relatively small price we pay compared with most other wealthy countries, imo. Is commercial banking the part of banking associated with synthetic collaterized debt obligations, bankruptcies and massive public bailouts, creating a sense of injustice that led to stuff like Brexit and the Trump Presidency? Tbf, it is about 14 years since the entire system teetered on the brink of collapse, which is nice.

What new opportunities do you see for improving the areas you highlight, resulting from Brexit?
Well done on getting this far, if you have, btw.

Have an RLFANS house point.

100% this.
The weird patriotism BS being spread about the AZ, sorry err "Oxford" vaccine is mind-boggling. If people can't see they're being fed a line with that one I truly despair at what they'll believe.

Schrödinger's vaccine.

Is that the Oxford vaccine that was delayed from the factory in India ?
If they had gone with that headline in the Mail, the roll out would have stopped in it's tracks

How can a variant first found in Kent and sweeping through the EU and many other countries be washed up on our shores because we have it already.

I just don’t get the Nationalistic hype the tories are pushing with the covid vaccine rollout, but I guess it’s not aimed at me, as they know I won’t swallow it.



They make it sound like we’ve never undertaken a vaccination programme before.
The NHS has administered millions of jabs for donkeys years now, with about 20 million flu jabs in the 3 months before Christmas every year.

As the local doctor said, the NHS was already set up for vaccination programmes, all that was needed was bigger premises, which were quickly identified as the sports stadiums, and taxpayers money to implement.

It helps the narrative terrifically if you can pretend that it's all driven by those awful foreigners and no such stuff could possibly evolve here. Not with our superior genes and stuff.

Because the narrative is

Washed up on our shores with dodgy immigrants coming in on boats.

Sounds a lot better than flown in by Boris dad after he visits his holiday home to get it ready for summer season

You just don't get it - our influence as one of 27 is pretty small in a system set up to suit the French and the Germans primarily. Both the Dutch and the Irish voted against a treaty what happened? Do you honestly believe that say Holland could actually prevent legislation if the likes of Germany and France decided it was a good thing? We supposedly had a veto until Cameron tried to use it.

If the EU had remained a trading block brilliant but it didn't - it became a super state where regulation/control became the focus rather than mutual prosperity.

The difference with say the China is that as a trading block it doesn't have to refer/defer to anyone else in doing what is best for itself - the EU is very different all the other major trading blocks. China trades with everyone how does its location help it reduce trade friction?

Where have I said we shouldn't make investments in the private sector, better communications, better infrastructure - why would we invest in making the state bigger? You don't really believe investing in the public sector will deliver a high knowledge, high skill, high wage economy - do you?

This is about Government control - they need to keep finding things to extend the lockdown. Now we can't even go abroad even to countries with very low infection rates e.g. Israel. They want to extend the special measures way beyond the June end of restrictions. It has nothing to do with foreigners as you and Ghost and Durham would like it to be.

In 2019 they did 1.8m Flu jabs not 20m - this vaccination program is unprecedented in scale in this country 20 times the size of the flu jab roll out.

I only mention Corbyn when he patriotic credentials are raised and by comparison with current shambles we have as a government. I have never suggested the current state of anything has Grandad as its root cause.