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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"compared to who? My income and wealth is far closer to those at the bottom end of the scale than the top. I would guess pretty much everyone here is in the same position.'"
The rest of th world.
You are significantly wealthier and have siginificantly more opportunities and a signficantly higher living standard than the vast majority of the world. |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"You started off this thread saying that you'd barely seen any of the details of the case but you were still leaning heavily into the Duggan camp. That's not a "staunch police supporter" and it's absolute BS to claim it now, when you've gone further and further into supporting Duggan.'"
I don't support Duggan.
I got angry at what looked to me like another police cock-up.
That could have been anyone in that taxi and I would have felt the same.
I am not alone in thinking this way.
There are many diametrically opposed to my view, you being one of them.
I will reiterate that I support the police not least because if I didn't I would have been brave enough today say so.
You can think what you like.
To go back to football, one of your chief interests, by way of comparison ....I can support a team and still question their tactics can't I?
No matter, I suspect that nothing that I say will make you happy.
Stick me in the police hater box then and let's move on.
Incidentally, I don't start many threads but along with my initial feelings (right or wrong) I thought it would be a good one with plenty of opportunity for different views to be expressed.
I got something right then if nothing else.
lol |
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| Quote ="Stand-Offish"I don't support Duggan.
I got angry at what looked to me like another police cock-up.
That could have been anyone in that taxi and I would have felt the same.
I am not alone in thinking this way.
There are many diametrically opposed to my view, you being one of them.
I will reiterate that I support the police not least because if I didn't I would have been brave enough today say so.
You can think what you like.
To go back to football, one of your chief interests, by way of comparison ....I can support a team and still question their tactics can't I?
No matter, I suspect that nothing that I say will make you happy.
Stick me in the police hater box then and let's move on.'"
You can support a football team and question their tactics. However, a Liverpool fan today wouldn't have put on a red and white shirt, sat with the home fans and sang along with the Stoke City songs during the game.
It would make me happy if you gave a genuine reply to the question of what the cops should have done differently to apprehend Duggan, rather than the utterly meaningless reply of approaching "with caution". |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"You can support a football team and question their tactics. However, a Liverpool fan today wouldn't have put on a red and white shirt, sat with the home fans and sang along with the Stoke City songs during the game.
It would make me happy if you gave a genuine reply to the question of what the cops should have done differently to apprehend Duggan, rather than the utterly meaningless reply of approaching "with caution".'"
I wasn't being flippant.
Caution would be my approach to dangerous situations like this one.
Clearly I can't specify a procedure that will satisfy you not least because you can play 'what if?' with it until the cows come home.
My ethos would be to arrest rather than kill where possible.
A sort of siege mentality if you like.
I know it wouldn't work for all cases.
But in this case the guy is in a taxi pretty much surrounded. He could take the taxi driver hostage.
He could try to leg it. He's not shooting at anybody yet so let's wait and see.
If he comes out shooting ... he's dead.
He could give himself up, I'd give him every chance.
Incidentally.......
You think he was in the act of legging it.
Have you proof of that?
Or was he shot in the act of getting out as requested?
I'm asking because I don't honestly know. |
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Quote ="Stand-Offish"Caution would be my approach to dangerous situations like this one.
Clearly I can't specify a procedure that will satisfy you not least because you can play 'what if?' with it until the cows come home.'"
If you are saying that the police screwed up with the way they implemented the stop of the taxi then you need to be able to offer alternative suggestions of what they should have done. You can't say why the police screwed up and you can't offer any alternatives.
Quote My ethos would be to arrest rather than kill where possible.'"
I'd suggest that was the intention of the police as well.
Quote A sort of siege mentality if you like.
I know it wouldn't work for all cases.
But in this case the guy is in a taxi pretty much surrounded. He could take the taxi driver hostage.
He could try to leg it. He's not shooting at anybody yet so let's wait and see.'"
He's driving around London in a London taxi. Taking a wait and see approach would be difficult if the taxi takes a turn down a road that only taxis are allowed down.
The police take a wait and see approach and Duggan just happens to be dropped off near a school or heavily populated shopping centre. Is this an example of good police work, or is this a police screw up?
Quote He could give himself up, I'd give him every chance.'"
What does "I'd give him every chance [to give himself up" actually mean?
Quote Incidentally.......
You think he was in the act of legging it.
Have you proof of that?
Or was he shot in the act of getting out as requested?'"
According to the evidence given by the cab driver and corroborated by one policeman present at the scene, Duggan got out of the taxi and ran in an attempt to escape.[40 The driver stated, "I saw that Mark Duggan got out and ran. At the same time, I heard firing from the front. I saw shots strike Mark Duggan. He fell to the ground.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan |
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Quote ="Stand-Offish"Caution would be my approach to dangerous situations like this one.
Clearly I can't specify a procedure that will satisfy you not least because you can play 'what if?' with it until the cows come home.'"
If you are saying that the police screwed up with the way they implemented the stop of the taxi then you need to be able to offer alternative suggestions of what they should have done. You can't say why the police screwed up and you can't offer any alternatives.
Quote My ethos would be to arrest rather than kill where possible.'"
I'd suggest that was the intention of the police as well.
Quote A sort of siege mentality if you like.
I know it wouldn't work for all cases.
But in this case the guy is in a taxi pretty much surrounded. He could take the taxi driver hostage.
He could try to leg it. He's not shooting at anybody yet so let's wait and see.'"
He's driving around London in a London taxi. Taking a wait and see approach would be difficult if the taxi takes a turn down a road that only taxis are allowed down.
The police take a wait and see approach and Duggan just happens to be dropped off near a school or heavily populated shopping centre. Is this an example of good police work, or is this a police screw up?
Quote He could give himself up, I'd give him every chance.'"
What does "I'd give him every chance [to give himself up" actually mean?
Quote Incidentally.......
You think he was in the act of legging it.
Have you proof of that?
Or was he shot in the act of getting out as requested?'"
According to the evidence given by the cab driver and corroborated by one policeman present at the scene, Duggan got out of the taxi and ran in an attempt to escape.[40 The driver stated, "I saw that Mark Duggan got out and ran. At the same time, I heard firing from the front. I saw shots strike Mark Duggan. He fell to the ground.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan | |
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| Quote ="Stand-Offish"...He's not shooting at anybody yet so let's wait and see. '"
Seriously? You propose that the police don't shoot until the armed criminal shoots? You want to think about that? if say you're the nearest armed officer- you are saying you'd wait and see if he took a shot at you first, and only then would you shoot (if still alive)?
Quote ="Stand-Offish"...He could give himself up, I'd give him every chance.
'"
"Armed police, hands up" or equivalent is the only chance a gunman should get.
Quote ="Stand-Offish"...You think he was in the act of legging it.
....'"
There was some evidence that he tried to leg it, but I don't think it is that significant, since the police obviously couldn't allow him to escape if they believed he had a gun. |
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| Page 17: Quote ="Stand-Offish"I am a staunch supporter of the police.'"
Opening post: Quote ="Stand-Offish"So I am coming from a position of ignorance, which isn't good I admit.
But Hillsborough and de Menezes spring to mind.'" |
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| Quote ="Stand-Offish"Well the verdict is in [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/mark-duggan-inquest-family-say-we-still-fight-for-justice-as-jury-finds-london-man-was-lawfully-killed-9046813.htmland here is one report.[/url
I found myself getting angry when it was announced and found myself siding with those shouting down the mouthpiece officer as he was attempting to give his comments.
Have I any right to logically feel this way? After all I wasn't there at the scene of the shooting and I don't have all the evidence and I didn't have to come to a considered verdict.
So I am coming from a position of ignorance, which isn't good I admit.
But Hillsborough and de Menezes spring to mind.
I would like someone to convince me that my feelings are unfounded.
And why were the police so confrontational anyway?
Was there not another way?
Is it right to put an officer into this kind of life or death split second decision situation?'"
Meh! It's nothing new. Check out Diarmuid O'Neill's story. Apparently that was lawful too! |
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| Quote ="ryano"Meh! It's nothing new. Check out Diarmuid O'Neill's story. Apparently that was lawful too!'"
What about O'Neill's story is deserving of any sympathy? |
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| Quote ="Stand-Offish"
He could take the taxi driver hostage.
/quote
Hands up or I'll shoot you with my sock?
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| Quote ="Richie"The rest of th world.
You are significantly wealthier and have siginificantly more opportunities and a signficantly higher living standard than the vast majority of the world.'"
I do indeed. I am however still, as i assume you and everyone else on this board is, far closer to bottom end of that scale than the very top. |
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"I do indeed. I am however still, as i assume you and everyone else on this board is, far closer to bottom end of that scale than the very top.'"
You do indeed what?
Do you really believe, that if we put the world population in a line, ordered richest to poorest, you would be towards the poor end of that line? |
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| Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"The crime he was committing was CARRYING A GUN. The police had information that he was on the way to shoot a rival gangster. They either stop him while he's carrying the gun, which they did, or they have zero chance of making an arrest with any chance of conviction.'" Then they should have done it when safe to do so, or at least there was a possibility it was safe to do so. When the police intercepted Duggan he didn’t have a gun, he had apparently tossed it by then. So what was the plan in arresting Duggan safely without that gun?
Quote But Duggan wasn't an innocent person. He was a suspected gangster, believed to be carrying a gun and on his way to murder someone.'" By law, what you have described is an innocent person.
Quote IMO the reason Duggan was throwing that gun is because he doesn't want to be caught with the gun. If he's caught with the gun, he's going down for years. SO HE'S NOT BROADCASTING THE FACT HE'S THROWING THE GUN AWAY.'" But he doesn’t have a gun. So he isn’t a threat. The fact he doesn’t have a gun because he tossed it, or he doesn’t have a gun because he never had one is irrelevant. He didn’t have one. How were the police planning to arrest Duggan. Not shoot him, arrest him? Remembering the fact that he had no gun when he was shot.
Quote So having stopped the taxi, seeing Duggan do a runner, seen him carrying the sock (which was carrying a gun) DUGGAN WAS ALWAYS A THREAT TO SHOOT.
Even if the cops saw him throw the gun in the sock, that doesn't negate the fact he could still be carrying other weapons. He either follows the police's instructions to surrender or the police have the right to shoot him if they believe he is putting them or others at risk.
When was it safe to apprehend Duggan?
The police escalated the situation? It wasn't Duggan who had escalated the situation by carrying a gun and being on the way to shoot someone?
It was the police's fault that Duggan chose to try and do a runner when stopped by armed officers?'"
So then why stop him there where he couldn’t have been disabled any other way? If Duggan at the point he was intercepted was always going to be a threat to shoot then why stop him at that point? If we follow what you are saying the decision to kill Mark Duggan wasn’t taken by the officer who felt threatened but by the officer who ordered the taxi to be stopped. If he was always a threat to shoot, he was always going to get shot and as such the decision to stop that taxi was a decision to shoot and kill Mark Duggan. |
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| Quote ="Richie"You do indeed what?'" [ihave siginificantly more opportunities and a signficantly higher living standard than the vast majority of the world.[/i
Quote Do you really believe, that if we put the world population in a line, ordered richest to poorest, you would be towards the poor end of that line?'" My wealth, like I assume you and everyone else on this board, is far closer to those at the bottom end of the scale than the top. |
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Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"If you are saying that the police screwed up with the way they implemented the stop of the taxi then you need to be able to offer alternative suggestions of what they should have done. You can't say why the police screwed up and you can't offer any alternatives.'"
I did answer it somewhere I believe.
I have no qualms about how they stopped the taxi. They thought that the best way to proceed and I agree.
What would I have done?
I'd have had my officers behind their cars with their weapons aimed at Duggan.
I wouldn't have approached the taxi.
I would have ordered Duggan out with his hands held high using my loudhailer.
None of my officers would have been anywhere near him until he got down on the floor as instructed.
I'm assuming that someone was in charge.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"He'sdriving around London in a London taxi. Taking a wait and see approach would be difficult if the taxi takes a turn down a road that only taxis are allowed down.
The police take a wait and see approach and Duggan just happens to be dropped off near a school or heavily populated shopping centre. Is this an example of good police work, or is this a police screw up?'"
He's not because we have already stopped him, I've agreed with the stop as performed
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"What does "I'd give him every chance [to give himself up" actually mean? '"
I meant if he didn't get out of the taxi as ordered.
I would wait for him to see sense and come out.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"According to the evidence given by the cab driver and corroborated by one policeman present at the scene, Duggan got out of the taxi and ran in an attempt to escape.[40 The driver stated, "I saw that Mark Duggan got out and ran. At the same time, I heard firing from the front. I saw shots strike Mark Duggan. He fell to the ground.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan'"
Now, if he comes out and legs it, I am a bit stuck apart from chasing him in the grand old British fashion.
I would have to know what the guidelines are. If it is OK to shoot him I would order that, if it isn't I wouldn't.
So if the guidelines say it is OK to shoot someone suspected of being armed if they are attempting to run away, then the police did nothing wrong.
But that wasn't the reason why they said they shot him, one of the officers felt threatened as Duggan was running away.
Duggan must have been a bit confused then if he was running towards the police.
This could go on for days ......
I do have support for the police, but in cases like this when they refuse to give evidence except on their own terms, that trust (for the people concerned, not the rest of the police) is suspended. |
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Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"If you are saying that the police screwed up with the way they implemented the stop of the taxi then you need to be able to offer alternative suggestions of what they should have done. You can't say why the police screwed up and you can't offer any alternatives.'"
I did answer it somewhere I believe.
I have no qualms about how they stopped the taxi. They thought that the best way to proceed and I agree.
What would I have done?
I'd have had my officers behind their cars with their weapons aimed at Duggan.
I wouldn't have approached the taxi.
I would have ordered Duggan out with his hands held high using my loudhailer.
None of my officers would have been anywhere near him until he got down on the floor as instructed.
I'm assuming that someone was in charge.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"He'sdriving around London in a London taxi. Taking a wait and see approach would be difficult if the taxi takes a turn down a road that only taxis are allowed down.
The police take a wait and see approach and Duggan just happens to be dropped off near a school or heavily populated shopping centre. Is this an example of good police work, or is this a police screw up?'"
He's not because we have already stopped him, I've agreed with the stop as performed
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"What does "I'd give him every chance [to give himself up" actually mean? '"
I meant if he didn't get out of the taxi as ordered.
I would wait for him to see sense and come out.
Quote ="Lord God Jose Mourinho"According to the evidence given by the cab driver and corroborated by one policeman present at the scene, Duggan got out of the taxi and ran in an attempt to escape.[40 The driver stated, "I saw that Mark Duggan got out and ran. At the same time, I heard firing from the front. I saw shots strike Mark Duggan. He fell to the ground.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_Mark_Duggan'"
Now, if he comes out and legs it, I am a bit stuck apart from chasing him in the grand old British fashion.
I would have to know what the guidelines are. If it is OK to shoot him I would order that, if it isn't I wouldn't.
So if the guidelines say it is OK to shoot someone suspected of being armed if they are attempting to run away, then the police did nothing wrong.
But that wasn't the reason why they said they shot him, one of the officers felt threatened as Duggan was running away.
Duggan must have been a bit confused then if he was running towards the police.
This could go on for days ......
I do have support for the police, but in cases like this when they refuse to give evidence except on their own terms, that trust (for the people concerned, not the rest of the police) is suspended. | |
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But how do you get the taxi to stop? If the police just get behind the vehicle and put their blue lights on there's the opportunity for the taxi to accelerate away. The only way to ensure the vehicle is stopped is to block it in with police vehicles, which means putting officers relatively close to the suspect.
I have little problem with the actions of the police during the incident (ie the stop, the shooting) from the information I've seen anyway. My problem is that the officer's statement doesn't tally with where the gun was found and that the police (unlike everyone else involved in an incident) are allowed to confer and prepare a statement.
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| Quote ="Him"
I have little problem with the actions of the police during the incident (ie the stop, the shooting) from the information I've seen anyway. My problem is that the officer's statement doesn't tally with where the gun was found and that the police (unlike everyone else involved in an incident) are allowed to confer and prepare a statement.'"
On the other hand your statement infers that exactly the opposite outcome should be expected, if you allow officers to confer in their statements then you'd get 20 identical statements - but clearly they didn't, they gave different statements, very different statements.
Seems to me that there is no problem with a system that receives different opinions rather than 20 identical opinions, we all know that its human nature to see things differently. |
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I suggest that they exit from the side furthest away from the taxi ... the driver's side mostly and use their cars as shields.
It's gonna slow them down a few seconds and they may not haves full sight.
They have also to ensure that they don't form a circle and shoot one another.
lol
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| Quote ="Stand-Offish"
They have also to ensure that they don't form a circle and shoot one another.
'"
This actually happened didn't it - wasn't this the case that one PC had reported being hit by a bullet but after investigation it was found to be a police bullet - hit the PC's radio lucky lad ?
or am I thinking of another incident ? |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"This actually happened didn't it - wasn't this the case that one PC had reported being hit by a bullet but after investigation it was found to be a police bullet - hit the PC's radio lucky lad ?
or am I thinking of another incident ?'"
It did, a ricochet.
It was the Duggan case. |
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| Quote ="Stand-Offish"It did, a ricochet.
It was the Duggan case.'"
Underlines why the Police like to be in command of all armed situations and why they aim for the large body mass rather than trying to "wing" someone in Wyatt Earp style. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"Underlines why the Police like to be in command of all armed situations and why they aim for the large body mass rather than trying to "wing" someone in Wyatt Earp style.'"
I am happy with them being in command, it would indicate that they have a plan. |
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| Quote ="Stand-Offish"I am happy with them being in command, it would indicate that they have a plan.'"
If the target runs then the plan goes out of the window, only Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ever ran out from cover into a barrage of guns, it doesn't make sense to sensible people. |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"If the target runs then the plan goes out of the window, only Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid ever ran out from cover into a barrage of guns, it doesn't make sense to sensible people.'"
It certainly doesn't.
Faced with an array of guns aimed by trained marksmen, I don't think my instincts would dictate anything other than puppy eyes and compliance.
Duggan might have thought it was a rival gang.
lol |
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"On the other hand your statement infers that exactly the opposite outcome should be expected, if you allow officers to confer in their statements then you'd get 20 identical statements - but clearly they didn't, they gave different statements, very different statements.
Seems to me that there is no problem with a system that receives different opinions rather than 20 identical opinions, we all know that its human nature to see things differently.'"
I don't know what the other police statements were, I'm only going off what I've heard and seen on TV and the bits people have posted on here, and whilst there may not be anything sinister in this case I don't agree with the principle of the police being allowed to confer, and having several days to think about it, before giving their statement. I believe they should be treated like anyone else (suspects or witnesses) at an incident in being split up and giving a statement relatively quickly. Then a senior officer or investigator from the IPCC or whichever body is suitable can pull all the statements together and decide what happened.
As I said, I'm not trying to infer that the police were "covering up" here but when they're allowed to wait a few days, get into a room together and take several hours to confer before giving their full statements it can give that impression, especially in a not straightforward case. |
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