|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Administrator | 25122 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2017 | May 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| For those people who continue to harp on about my supposed "belligerency" I'd just like to point out that it really isn't personal.
I just get frustrated by so many people with so little to say.
Do any of you actually READ books which don't feature Lewis Hamilton on the cover?
What happened to the Internet?
I remember having some genuinely stimulating discussions with smart people when I first started posting to Usenet. Nowadays I literally feel like scooping out my eyes with a spoon reading half the crap which gets posted in here.
I wouldn't mind if it weren't for that fact that I KNOW many of you are capable of much more. Yet you just don't try.
Feck it. I'm off to bed.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Moderator | 36786 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jul 2003 | 22 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jan 2025 | May 2023 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
Moderator
|
| Quote ="Mugwump"Why would he care? I've searched all sixteen pages of this thread and I can't find a single post of yours which convinces me that your opinion is worth entertaining.
I mean, aside from telling everyone that you aren't a racist, xenophobe etc
etc. etc. what have you said?'"
Oh, Hi, Mugwump. Nice to see you break away from talking to yourself in your private delusional threads long enough to scatter a few words of 'wisdom' in my direction. I could do with a laugh.
I'll just stop responding now and you can chunter away. Should make you feel right at home.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Administrator | 25122 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2017 | May 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Kosh"Oh, Hi, Mugwump. Nice to see you break away from talking to yourself in your private delusional threads long enough to scatter a few words of 'wisdom' in my direction. I could do with a laugh.
I'll just stop responding now and you can chunter away. Should make you feel right at home.'"
Seventeen pages, now...
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Captain | 2418 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2016 | 9 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Mar 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Kosh"Where did I suggest that you weren't?
I do, however, reserve the right to pour scorn on it.'"
Yes you do reserve that right , as of course do I on yours and others , hopefully a reasoned debate unlike certain others
It seems I was banned permenantly yesterday for posting on this thread , who by ? , no idea they obviously didn't feel brave enough to disclose who or why , or who has reinstated me
Happy to take part in as I said a reasoned debate , although a certain individual will now go on ignore , something I've never felt the need to do previously in 14 years of posting on this board
Unfortunately it seems the certain individual cannot be ' ignored '
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Captain | 2418 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2016 | 9 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Mar 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Kosh"Popycock. The EU is not any kind of existential threat to self-determination and young voters are overwhelming in favour of remaining in it.
The EU is a threat to certain right-wing interests being able to screw the rest of us over. Which is why the usual suspects are leading the Out vote.'"
I've yet to hear any argument by a ' young ' person other than they don't want to lose the ease of traveling within Europe
Those right-wing interests being what ?
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14845 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2021 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Kosh"I'll be voting to stay in as I am not any of the following:
1. Ill-informed
2. Xenophobic
3. Stupid
4. A conspiracy fruitcake
5. All of the above
Plus Brexiters make me embarrassed to be British.'"
I would respectfully suggest that such a silly post suggests your point 3 or indeed 4 may apply to you.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14845 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2021 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| I cannot see any case whatsoever for remaining in the EU:
1. Economically it will continue to decline until it or unless it completely changes its modus operandi. It will destroy Britain's economy long-term by squeezing all innovation out - this has already happened in certain fields, eg drugs development, tech development, etc via centralised regulation. If it does dramatically reform then those who support it now for immature reasons like "workers rights" will be the first to complain.
2. Safer and more secure? Not a chance. The only "fact" is that Britain got dragged into two world wars due to forming alliances with other European states. Also, look at the uprisings (which we are only seeing the start of) in the poorer peripheral regions (which we will be in time if we stay in). Think of the potential future strife on the mass immigration of people from the Muslim world encouraged by Merkel. History strongly suggests this will result in bloodshed at some point in the future.
3. Getting out could stimulate growth and relieve poverty in Africa and other poorer regions as we could buy their produce more easily and more fairly.
4. It is utterly untenable for Cameron to pretend we can somehow be at the centre of the EU steering its development when we are not in the Eurozone. So that means the reasoners will have to sign us up to the destructive Eurozone in future. Why won't they say that? Could it be dishonesty - like our politicians have given us from the start if thus project?
To me the risks of staying in are enormous for the UK.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14845 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2021 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="GUBRATS"I've yet to hear any argument by a ' young ' person other than they don't want to lose the ease of traveling within Europe
Those right-wing interests being what ?'"
The youngsters seem to like being able to travel to Europe without a visa. Nobody seems to have told them that we used to before we joined the EU (other behind the iron curtain) or that other EEA members don't have a problem.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Captain | 2418 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2016 | 9 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Mar 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Dally"The youngsters seem to like being able to travel to Europe without a visa. Nobody seems to have told them that we used to before we joined the EU (other behind the iron curtain) or that other EEA members don't have a problem.'"
Eggsactly
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Captain | 2418 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2016 | 9 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Mar 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Dally"I cannot see any case whatsoever for remaining in the EU:
1. Economically it will continue to decline until it or unless it completely changes its modus operandi. It will destroy Britain's economy long-term by squeezing all innovation out - this has already happened in certain fields, eg drugs development, tech development, etc via centralised regulation. If it does dramatically reform then those who support it now for immature reasons like "workers rights" will be the first to complain.
2. Safer and more secure? Not a chance. The only "fact" is that Britain got dragged into two world wars due to forming alliances with other European states. Also, look at the uprisings (which we are only seeing the start of) in the poorer peripheral regions (which we will be in time if we stay in). Think of the potential future strife on the mass immigration of people from the Muslim world encouraged by Merkel. History strongly suggests this will result in bloodshed at some point in the future.
3. Getting out could stimulate growth and relieve poverty in Africa and other poorer regions as we could buy their produce more easily and more fairly.
4. It is utterly untenable for Cameron to pretend we can somehow be at the centre of the EU steering its development when we are not in the Eurozone. So that means the reasoners will have to sign us up to the destructive Eurozone in future. Why won't they say that? Could it be dishonesty - like our politicians have given us from the start if thus project?
To me the risks of staying in are enormous for the UK.'"
I concur , the longer we remain in the deeper we will be dragged into it , and the more diluted will become our influence
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14845 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2021 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| The whole thing is a charade. Our Establishment is trying to con us again. The reality is there will be a federal tax system and if we are not members f the Eurozone where does that leave us? One of the levers our government has for managing The economy gone. The logic would once again mean we would have to join the Eurozone to survive. The whole things stinks.
|
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Administrator | 25122 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2017 | May 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| People who believe their "interests" should be considered purely because, at certain points in their life, they have scrawled an "X" on a sheet of paper and stuffed it into a ballot box really do get the government they so richly deserve.
I mean, sure - governments don't exactly go out of their way to encourage participation. Indeed, I'd argue they actively discourage such. But as with anything there's an equal element of [ipersonal responsibility[/i. If you aren't prepared to get off your backside and hold these people to account you can hardly blame them for pandering to big business and the rich who go to GREAT LENGTHS to see that their interests are represented.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 20628 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2016 | Aug 2016 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Yet people will pay (granted a small fee) to vote for some no mark in a singing contest or some idiot in a house to be kicked out, yet not walk to the polling station and vote for free on something that actually matters, I despise and despair of this society, it's so easy to change the system and the world if people could just think and act, neither of which people seem to do anymore.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Administrator | 25122 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2017 | May 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Wire Yed"Yet people will pay (granted a small fee) to vote for some no mark in a singing contest or some idiot in a house to be kicked out, yet not walk to the polling station and vote for free on something that actually matters, I despise and despair of this society, it's so easy to change the system and the world if people could just think and act, neither of which people seem to do anymore.'"
I wouldn't go so far as to say it's "easy". I mean, in Western democracies you can impose a [ilimited[/i degree of change on elected governments. But we're only talking within a relatively narrow spectrum (and getting narrower all the time) because more and more power has been devolved away from politicians and into the hands of big business, NGOs and such (mostly via trade agreements such as NAFTA, GATT, WTO etc. etc.)
Moreover, you should always be wary about activist movements because stated motives and actual motives are not always the same. Take the "Tea Party" in the US. Few people know that around the time of its genesis it was actively pushing for an investigation into the events of 9/11. However, the moment the likes of the Koch brothers and such became involved all that went by the wayside.
History teaches us that whenever people have attempted to push beyond the "acceptable" boundaries of change they've encountered severe pushback. This ranges from penetration and subversion of activist groups, surveillance, warrantless searches etc. right up to long-term incarceration, torture and death squads.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Player Coach | 20628 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2009 | 16 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Aug 2016 | Aug 2016 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Mugwump"
History teaches us that whenever people have attempted to push beyond the "acceptable" boundaries of change they've encountered severe pushback.'"
Like Snowden?
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Administrator | 25122 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2017 | May 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Wire Yed"Like Snowden?'"
I'm very sceptical of Snowden. He has all the makings of an intelligence operation. Ex-military. Applied for special forces but supposedly didn't make it (which means he likely did and he's been "sheep dipped"icon_wink.gif. I think he went to somewhere like the Monterray School of Languages - which is a big "no no". As is the fact that he was working as a fully-fledged CIA operative in Switzerland. The guy is a spook.
His behaviour after he "downloaded" anywhere up to a million classified-or-above files from the NSA's servers (without their knowledge) screams spook.
The Snowden operation is a complex, multi-layered one serving several purposes which would take me too long to speculate on. Suffice to say that people should take note of [iwhat was going on in the world[/i the day the Snowden story broke.
John Young at cryptome.org has been holding Snowden & Glenn Greenwald's feet to the fire over the non-appearance of the overwhelming majority of these stolen files. Greenwald himself seems to be doing very well out of the whole affair landing a lucrative media opportunity with that very shady character, Pierre Omidyar (and ... believe it or not ... Booz-Allen Hamilton!).
I mean, what really has Snowden (and Julian Assange) released? It's a similar story to another Guardian-led operation which has emerged recently, "The Panama Papers". I said BEFORE I'd even seen the story that the number one target would be Putin and very, very few US or UK-based businessmen would be touched. When you look closely at Snowden, Assange & the Panama Papers it soon becomes apparent that aside from one or two minor incidents which result in some mid-level intelligence dweeb or squaddie in the US being thrown to the wolves the great majority of content is aimed directly at Russia, the BRICS nations and certain unfriendly Gulf states.
None of these people would ever have received the press they've garnered if they were legitimate. BTW, I'm not suggesting that they are knowingly part of a deception. There are plenty of "useful fools" in the world...
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Owner | 4420 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2004 | 21 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Apr 2020 | Oct 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| One argument for mass immigration is that we have an aging population and a low birth rate. Why don't we encourage Brits to procreate? At the moment women are discouraged from having children. Middle class women are told that they should be focusing on their career rather than having kids. Poorer women are met with "Who's going to pay for those kids?" and "benefit scrounger".
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14970 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Jun 2002 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Nov 2021 | Nov 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Before I start I'll state I'm in favour of staying in the EU. That doesn't mean I agree with everything it does or that everything is fine with it just that I think the way to solving problems is to come together as nations rather than stay entirely apart.
On immigration you're right that argument is often used and it's one I disagree with. It's a short term argument because it's a cycle then that requires yet more immigration to support the next group of retirees etc etc.
I also think that large amounts of immigration, especially the kind of immigration we're experiencing from Eastern Europe, simply drives down wages and, crucially, workers rights and conditions.
Of course the real problem came from too rapid an expansion of the EU into Eastern Europe, into countries that weren't and still aren't suitable for it. All that I can see is that this expansion was a political move against Russia to "grab" as many of the Eastern Europe countries as possible away from Russian influence, hence Russia pushing back in Ukraine.
The countries in Eastern Europe are just at too different a level of development for them to be compatible with full EU membership and should never have been admitted.
Free movement of people works fine between nations of relatively similar economies and/or states of development and that's where it should've stayed.
However, IIRC (I'm going off memory here and it may be wrong so I'm more than happy to be corrected if I am) but net immigration accounts for approx half the population increase, the other reason being birth rate. And of the net immigration approx half is from outside the EU.
So leaving the EU, at best, only deals with a quarter of the issue.
Whist we're on the subject of immigration I'm getting sick of hearing politicians and those pillocks in the media constantly saying we want highly skilled immigrants to come in. I don't want that. I'd rather we adequately trained and paid our own people to be highly skilled and be doctors/nurses etc etc rather than immigrants.
But, leaving the EU really really won't solve the immigration/population growth issue.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Owner | 4420 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Apr 2004 | 21 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Apr 2020 | Oct 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="Him"
Whist we're on the subject of immigration I'm getting sick of hearing politicians and those pillocks in the media constantly saying we want highly skilled immigrants to come in. I don't want that. I'd rather we adequately trained and paid our own people to be highly skilled and be doctors/nurses etc etc rather than immigrants. '"
Yes
Quote
But, leaving the EU really really won't solve the immigration/population growth issue.'"
There's still too many coming from outside the EU despute claims we can control this.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14845 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2021 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="wigan_rlfc"One argument for mass immigration is that we have an aging population and a low birth rate. Why don't we encourage Brits to procreate? At the moment women are discouraged from having children. Middle class women are told that they should be focusing on their career rather than having kids. Poorer women are met with "Who's going to pay for those kids?" and "benefit scrounger".'"
If we had less migrants it would force wages up and more women could stay at home, especially if combined with a ban on non-residents owning residential property.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14845 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2021 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| On the immigration thing - numbers will increase even more given the huge levels of unemployment being created by the EZ, the fact that English is often people's second language and as more people already have friends and family here. The EZ shows signs of creating even more unemployment and crises will come to light after 23 June. If we stay then numbers will increase - as they say "you ain't' seen nothing yet." That will lead to trouble and increased racism (for want of a better term).
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Captain | 2418 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2016 | 9 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Mar 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| The more population to pay for future pensions argument just isnt viable , as Him explains you then need more in future generations and so on , what is needed is everybody earning more income , paying more direct and indirect taxes and so on
Him is also correct with the expansion of the EU with countries not suitable economically
With regards immigration of highly qualified people from poorer countries within the EU ( and outside ) surely this means those countries will fail to develop and fall further behind the major counties , compounding the issues , we need more home produced work and help the weaker countries build themselves and their welfare systems up
We see the argument for cheap labour from the EU , but also hear the argument for labour protection laws from the Eu , so what are we suggesting ? , we want British workers protected but ' slave ' labour from poor counties ?
If cheap labour wasn't available the farmers would have to pay more for British workers and the result would be ? , 20p more for a cabbage ? , disaster
As Martyn Lewis has suggested , economically NOBODY knows what will defiantly happen , everybody on both sides are guessing , there are no facts , just opinions
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Administrator | 25122 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Jul 2017 | May 2017 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| Quote ="GUBRATS"As Martyn Lewis has suggested , economically NOBODY knows what will defiantly happen,'"
And yet history is littered with CAST-IRON evidence [url=https://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Presidents-Bankers-Nomi-Prins/dp/1568584792here[/url, and [url=https://www.amazon.co.uk/Flash-Boys-Michael-Lewis/dp/0141981032here[/url and [url=https://www.amazon.co.uk/Flash-Boys-Michael-Lewis/dp/0141981032here[/url (plus a hundred or so other books I could mention) of people benefiting enormously from KNOWING what will happen before it does.
Just how are we to reconcile the Great Sage of the Daily Mail's arguments with the above evidence?
Simple, really. Like every halfwit who repeats this garbage, Lewis' mistake is not in stating that complex and chaotic systems are, by definition, unpredictable (a.k.a. stating the BLOODY OBVIOUS ) - it is in the implicit assumption that all economics is complex and chaotic.
Insider trading is successful precisely because it transforms a non-deterministic (unpredictable) system into a deterministic (predictable) one.
And insider trading (such as the type highlighted in Michael Lewis's "Flashboys"icon_wink.gif is but one in a very, very long line of techniques of "gaming" a system.
Quote there are no facts , just opinions'"
You do realise this is a logical fallacy? If there are no facts then your fact that "there are no facts" is opinion ... not fact.
=#FF0000Score: E- (Must try harder)
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
International Chairman | 14845 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Dec 2001 | 23 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Oct 2021 | Jul 2021 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| If you read Peter Liiley's recent article in the Daily Telegraph there are very good reasons to think things will be better out. if the EU barred us from the single market the would be in breach of international law provided we legislate appropriately as part of the leaving process. in other words the scare stories are just that. Our net contribution is equivalent to a 7 per cent tariff on everything, whereas average international tariffs are just 2.4 percent. In other words we are in effect paying well over the odds, if it's just about the single market as Cameron and Osborne pretend. In fact it's all about integration, joining the Eurozone and destruction of the values and systems that made this nation the most successful in history and allows others such as USA, Canada, Australia to enjoy good standards of living.
|
|
|
Rank | Posts | Team |
Club Captain | 2418 | No Team Selected |
Joined | Service | Reputation |
Mar 2016 | 9 years | |
Online | Last Post | Last Page |
Mar 2020 | Mar 2020 | LINK |
Milestone Posts |
|
Milestone Years |
|
Location |
|
Signature |
TO BE FIXED |
|
| A couple of interesting articles in the Mail today outlining the spending by the EU bureauocrats and the general feeling around the northern Labour heartlands , mirroring what I've been seeing when asking people how they are voting
|
|
|
|
|