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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Over time, with AI taking full effect, would it's influence take out some of the "bumps" in how we all behave, with human beings becoming more and more like the robot's that are having more and more influence on our lives.
It's the nuance within our thoughts and reactions that would be hardest to detect by "machine" and as you say, we could all be thinking "exactly" the same but, our reactions would usually be different.
Taking bereavement as an example, we may all be equally upset at the loss of someone but, one person would have uncontrollable grief, wheras the next person may still be able to carry on.'"
For AI to really work we would need a far better understanding of the human brain than we currently do. |
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| Quote ="bren2k"Indeed - I'm a huge fan of Bladerunner; these days however, it just feels like a documentary.'"
Quote ="Sal Paradise"For AI to really work we would need a far better understanding of the human brain than we currently do.'"
In terms of sentience and awareness of self, I somewhat agree. In terms of thought and memory, i’m not so sure.
The human brain evolved without anybody understanding the brains of our early mammalian ancestors. It some ways it seems to be more about creating the conditions and massive and repeated trial and error. Maybe our current bots are the equivalent of simple microbes - which are a long way from our intelligent human life, but it is where our path to this started.
Nobody wholly ‘understands’ the algorithms that run so much of the internet and digital trading markets, just how well they do and don’t work subjectively.
A whole new set of ethics and legislation would be required, that’s for sure. At least we’ll have e-philosophers to help draft them. Or dictate them, depending on their outlook and the power balance. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"For AI to really work we would need a far better understanding of the human brain than we currently do.'"
And therin lies the problem, trying to use binary to beat evolution,
Computers etc. have their place, that is beyond doubt, but they will never replace flesh and bone (human or other species). |
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| Quote ="IR80"And therin lies the problem, trying to use binary to beat evolution,
Computers etc. have their place, that is beyond doubt, but they will never replace flesh and bone (human or other species).'"
Are [iin silico[/i 1s and 0s that different in principle to [iin vivo[/i As, Ts, Cs and Gs?
Cars largely displaced horses in transport. Automation has been replacing humans in many jobs for decades and that seems set to accelerate.
Does it have to be about beating evolution? Could it be collaborative rather than competitive? |
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"Are [iin silico[/i 1s and 0s that different in principle to [iin vivo[/i As, Ts, Cs and Gs?
Cars largely displaced horses in transport. Automation has been replacing humans in many jobs for decades and that seems set to accelerate.
Does it have to be about beating evolution? Could it be collaborative rather than competitive?'"
1 and 0 are far removed from the constituent parts of the double helix (give up trying to be clever, nobody is impressed), you want to believe in AI, whatever makes you happy. Facts remain that biology beats science, every time. |
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| Quote ="IR80"1 and 0 are far removed from the constituent parts of the double helix (give up trying to be clever, nobody is impressed), you want to believe in AI, whatever makes you happy. Facts remain that biology beats science, every time.'"
In what way? it is just coding.
As you don’t like me trying to be clever, I shan’t start waffling on about histones, DNA methylation and epigenetics. Oops, too late.
Given that biology is a science, I assume you mean biological life beats technological advancement every time. That seems to be patently untrue rather than a fact that remains.
I’m not sure I want to believe in future AIs or that it makes me happy. I just find it plausible and interesting.
So anyway, Boris Johnson. He’s been quite quiet, which is nice. Allowed us to have this little chat that has proved that it isn’t just politics, we don’t agree on much of anything.
What shall we argue about next? |
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"
What shall we argue about next?'"
That's more like it. 
That Rovers will come bottom of the 2020 Super League? |
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| Quote ="WIZEB"That's more like it.
That Rovers will come bottom of the 2020 Super League?'"
Something else that I find plausible but doesn’t necessarily make me happy!
‘We’ are trying our best in a sensible enough way, it seems. That’s something, at least. |
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"In what way? it is just coding.
As you don’t like me trying to be clever, I shan’t start waffling on about histones, DNA methylation and epigenetics. Oops, too late.
Given that biology is a science, I assume you mean biological life beats technological advancement every time. That seems to be patently untrue rather than a fact that remains.
I’m not sure I want to believe in future AIs or that it makes me happy. I just find it plausible and interesting.
So anyway, Boris Johnson. He’s been quite quiet, which is nice. Allowed us to have this little chat that has proved that it isn’t just politics, we don’t agree on much of anything.
What shall we argue about next?'"
The thing is, we disagree, but not argue. I respect your opinion on things, even if we don't share them. One opinion I do share is that KR are doing their best, and I hope they stay up. kR offer a damn sight more than TWP, Leigh, Widnes, but that is a wholly different topic. |
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Why do we need commentators at the rugby on Sky?
Surely AI could do it now? We could just get voice clips of Ray French, Stevo and let the AI monitor the game and when it picks up certain patterns of play, use the relevant voice clip...
"Ooooo NOW THEN! Now! Has he scored? I think he has you know!"
"This 6 foot 4 inch former Blackbrook amateur, signed for FORTY-THOUSAND-POUND"
"That'll be T-R-Y for mine!"
"I'd try for the one pointer"
"Maybe its time for the chip over the top"
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| Quote ="IR80"The thing is, we disagree, but not argue. I respect your opinion on things, even if we don't share them.'"
Quote ="IR80"give up trying to be clever, nobody is impressed'"
Strange.
Anyhow - I tend to fall into the camp that thinks (hopes?) that AI can develop to operate collaboratively with humans; and I'm not convinced that it relies entirely on a total understanding of human intelligence - since machine learning works entirely differently to how we learn.
The unfortunate thing with a discussion like this, when it lands in the public sphere, is that the phenomenon of bad science almost always infects the discussion; for newspaper editors who don't understand the science, and probably don't want to, AI is not interesting unless you can include a picture of The Terminator, and spout prophecies of doom about the rise of the machines. As is often the case in mainstream media, most conversations are framed within a black and white logical fallacy, wherein the ongoing advancement of AI is either wholly good or wholly bad - and we don't get a chance to hear experts talk around it in a nuanced way. |
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| Quote ="bren2k"The unfortunate thing with a discussion like this, when it lands in the public sphere, is that the phenomenon of bad science almost always infects the discussion; for newspaper editors who don't understand the science, and probably don't want to, AI is not interesting unless you can include a picture of The Terminator, and spout prophecies of doom about the rise of the machines.'"
I can already see the Daily Express headline. Nostradamus made THIS prediction - AI is coming for YOUR JOBS |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"I can already see the Daily Express headline. Nostradamus made THIS prediction - AI is coming for YOUR JOBS'"
Pretty much - followed by a 4 minute TV debate, in which an expert AI scientist is opposed by a man in combat trousers and a tinfoil skullcap, who believes that mobile phones make you sterile, and Robot Wars is a secret training camp for our mechanical overlords. |
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| Quote ="bren2k"Pretty much - followed by a 4 minute TV debate, in which an expert AI scientist is opposed by a man in combat trousers and a tinfoil skullcap, who believes that mobile phones make you sterile, and Robot Wars is a secret training camp for our mechanical overlords.'"
What has happened to the hole in the ozone - I don't hear anything about this - scientists never stop looking for new stuff to scare everyone. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"What has happened to the hole in the ozone - I don't hear anything about this - scientists never stop looking for facts to inform everyone.'"
Fixed it for you.
I take it you're one of Michael Gove's brave new thinkers, who are sick of experts? |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"What has happened to the hole in the ozone - I don't hear anything about this - scientists never stop looking for new stuff to scare everyone.'"
The last person on this forum to raise doubts about damage to the ozone layer was a flat earther.
You're not the latest incarnation of Flat Stanley, are you? |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"The last person on this forum to raise doubts about damage to the ozone layer was a flat earther.
You're not the latest incarnation of Flat Stanley, are you?'"
I never said it didn't exist - all I am saying is I don't hear any talk of it anymore. This planet has survived for billions of years - it has managed meteor strikes, ice ages, plate movements etc.
All you worshippers of princess Greta are akin to Flat Stanley - the idea that this planet wont survive another 50 years is a delusional thought. I hope your knees are not hurting that much. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"What has happened to the hole in the ozone - I don't hear anything about this - scientists never stop looking for new stuff to scare everyone.'"
That's because back in the halcyon days of the 80's, before the post-truth era and when scientists were actually listened to and respected, action was taken, which has largely resolved the problem:
Quote ="DEFRA"The ozone depletion caused by human-produced chlorine and bromine compounds is expected to gradually disappear by about the middle of the 21st century as these compounds are slowly removed from the stratosphere by natural processes. This environmental achievement is due to the landmark international agreement to control the production and use of ozone-depleting substances. Full compliance would be required to achieve this expected recovery.'"
And your comments about Greta Thunberg are quite telling - instead of learning from history, when the combined efforts of many countries to tackle an environmental crisis actually worked, people like you would rather attack a 16 year old girl and deny the reality of the situation and the scientific consensus, because somehow, caring about the planet we all inhabit has become a left/right issue, rather than an issue that has an impact on everyone.
Strange times. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"I never said it didn't exist - all I am saying is I don't hear any talk of it anymore. This planet has survived for billions of years - it has managed meteor strikes, ice ages, plate movements etc.
All you worshippers of princess Greta are akin to Flat Stanley - the idea that this planet wont survive another 50 years is a delusional thought. I hope your knees are not hurting that much.'"
You could be related to my friend from East Hull.
In relation to how long the planet has been turning, humans havent been around for very long at all but, we do appear to be bleeding the planet of most of it's natural resources and warming the place up, although some believe that the warming of the oceans is just part of the natural cycle of events.
Tbf, we are trusting the scientists, who, at best are looking only at the last couple of hundred years but, that could mean that things are even worse than some of the predictions.
The easy way is to do like Trump and just carry on regardless - burning fossil fuels and just disregard the science.
However, I dont have him down as any kind of decent scientist and his advice may not be the best on offer so, maybe we should hedge our bets a little.  |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"You could be related to my friend from East Hull.
In relation to how long the planet has been turning, humans havent been around for very long at all but, we do appear to be bleeding the planet of most of it's natural resources and warming the place up, although some believe that the warming of the oceans is just part of the natural cycle of events.
Tbf, we are trusting the scientists, who, at best are looking only at the last couple of hundred years but, that could mean that things are even worse than some of the predictions.
The easy way is to do like Trump and just carry on regardless - burning fossil fuels and just disregard the science.
However, I dont have him down as any kind of decent scientist and his advice may not be the best on offer so, maybe we should hedge our bets a little.
'"
TBF you are trusting the scientists that agree with you and discarding those who don't. Is the planet warming yes - will we run out of food, not a chance. How do we change - it needs to be a global effort - I don't see that happening anytime soon |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"TBF you are trusting the scientists that agree with you and discarding those who don't. Is the planet warming yes - will we run out of food, not a chance. How do we change - it needs to be a global effort - I don't see that happening anytime soon'"
Where we clearly differ is down to the effects of the planet warming.
As far as the food supply and the huge drive to try and persuade people to eat less meat. Yes, this may be connected to climate change but, I think this has more to do with the increasing population and longer life expectancy, rather than pure climate change issues.
As for who to believe Attenborough or Trump, mmm, lets think about that one, yes, Attenborough seems a fair bit more knowledgeable and somewhat more honest with the facts.
You could always join my friend from East Hull and just close your eyes and cover your ears - everything will be just fine.
We could just carry on, dismiss the science and be accepting of our fete or, make just a few changes to improve everyone's chances.
Having said that, in the modern capitalist driven world, there are some who would prefer to make money than consider the long term wellbeing of the rest and this does need addressing at some point. |
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Here's an early example of the tensions that will hit the Conservative party now they have MPs in former Labour areas in the north/midlands:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ing-review
It seems this 'fair funding review' of local authority budget allocations is a legacy of the Theresa May era, and it looks like classic political gaming: transferring large sums of money away from areas with Labour councils towards Tory shires. So Grimsby, Keighley, Workington,Leigh, Bishop Auckland, Don Valley, Stoke-on-Trent, West Bromwich are getting their funding slashed and Hampshire, Surrey, Northamptonshire, Berkshire are getting an increase.
Direct transfer away from deprived areas towards better off shires.
I expect when this review was set in motion, the Tories didn't expect there to be Conservative MPs in some of those areas. The funding cuts will affect council services so aren't directly the responsibility of the MP, and they probably figured it would force Labour councils in to more unpopular decisions. The problem now though is that these new Conservative MPs campaigned on the theme that these areas have had Labour councils and Labour MPs for decades and have been in steady decline, so there needs to be 'change', so it will be hard for the MPs to avoid getting some comeback from angry constituents, if they are trying to use the line 'these issues are the responsibility of your council not the MP'.
There will probably be some anxious new Tory MPs now lobbying No.10 to redo this review. Although Boris's constituency is in line for an £8.8million increase so it's not all bad for him! |
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Here's an early example of the tensions that will hit the Conservative party now they have MPs in former Labour areas in the north/midlands:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ing-review
It seems this 'fair funding review' of local authority budget allocations is a legacy of the Theresa May era, and it looks like classic political gaming: transferring large sums of money away from areas with Labour councils towards Tory shires. So Grimsby, Keighley, Workington,Leigh, Bishop Auckland, Don Valley, Stoke-on-Trent, West Bromwich are getting their funding slashed and Hampshire, Surrey, Northamptonshire, Berkshire are getting an increase.
Direct transfer away from deprived areas towards better off shires.
I expect when this review was set in motion, the Tories didn't expect there to be Conservative MPs in some of those areas. The funding cuts will affect council services so aren't directly the responsibility of the MP, and they probably figured it would force Labour councils in to more unpopular decisions. The problem now though is that these new Conservative MPs campaigned on the theme that these areas have had Labour councils and Labour MPs for decades and have been in steady decline, so there needs to be 'change', so it will be hard for the MPs to avoid getting some comeback from angry constituents, if they are trying to use the line 'these issues are the responsibility of your council not the MP'.
There will probably be some anxious new Tory MPs now lobbying No.10 to redo this review. Although Boris's constituency is in line for an £8.8million increase so it's not all bad for him! | |
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Quote ="sally cinnamon"Here's an early example of the tensions that will hit the Conservative party now they have MPs in former Labour areas in the north/midlands:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ing-review
It seems this 'fair funding review' of local authority budget allocations is a legacy of the Theresa May era, and it looks like classic political gaming: transferring large sums of money away from areas with Labour councils towards Tory shires. So Grimsby, Keighley, Workington,Leigh, Bishop Auckland, Don Valley, Stoke-on-Trent, West Bromwich are getting their funding slashed and Hampshire, Surrey, Northamptonshire, Berkshire are getting an increase.
Direct transfer away from deprived areas towards better off shires.
I expect when this review was set in motion, the Tories didn't expect there to be Conservative MPs in some of those areas. The funding cuts will affect council services so aren't directly the responsibility of the MP, and they probably figured it would force Labour councils in to more unpopular decisions. The problem now though is that these new Conservative MPs campaigned on the theme that these areas have had Labour councils and Labour MPs for decades and have been in steady decline, so there needs to be 'change', so it will be hard for the MPs to avoid getting some comeback from angry constituents, if they are trying to use the line 'these issues are the responsibility of your council not the MP'.
There will probably be some anxious new Tory MPs now lobbying No.10 to redo this review. Although Boris's constituency is in line for an £8.8million increase so it's not all bad for him!'"
You're right, they never expected to wipe out so many Labour seats and this would bite them right in the backside if it went ahead - which isn't certain by a long stretch. I expect plans will change. To give him credit, Boris is a 'listener'. Many who've worked with him say the same - he listens and reacts, and surely he realises he needs to feed the hand that voted him in.
I hark back to local social media sites and there's plenty of hope that ousting (for example) Jo Platt from Leigh will be the start of turning things around, but many acknowledge the shambolic, corrupt, land-selling clowns of Wigan Labour council are a massive hurdle.
The Tories need to pump investment into the 'red wall', and be seen doing it. If nothing changes before the next GE Labour will walk straight back in. They can bypass Wigan council by getting police on the streets (mind you the corruption in GMP is horrendous), but getting a Labour council to reflect Tory investment is going to be a challenge. Especially that despicable lot in Wigan. |
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Quote ="sally cinnamon"Here's an early example of the tensions that will hit the Conservative party now they have MPs in former Labour areas in the north/midlands:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... ing-review
It seems this 'fair funding review' of local authority budget allocations is a legacy of the Theresa May era, and it looks like classic political gaming: transferring large sums of money away from areas with Labour councils towards Tory shires. So Grimsby, Keighley, Workington,Leigh, Bishop Auckland, Don Valley, Stoke-on-Trent, West Bromwich are getting their funding slashed and Hampshire, Surrey, Northamptonshire, Berkshire are getting an increase.
Direct transfer away from deprived areas towards better off shires.
I expect when this review was set in motion, the Tories didn't expect there to be Conservative MPs in some of those areas. The funding cuts will affect council services so aren't directly the responsibility of the MP, and they probably figured it would force Labour councils in to more unpopular decisions. The problem now though is that these new Conservative MPs campaigned on the theme that these areas have had Labour councils and Labour MPs for decades and have been in steady decline, so there needs to be 'change', so it will be hard for the MPs to avoid getting some comeback from angry constituents, if they are trying to use the line 'these issues are the responsibility of your council not the MP'.
There will probably be some anxious new Tory MPs now lobbying No.10 to redo this review. Although Boris's constituency is in line for an £8.8million increase so it's not all bad for him!'"
You're right, they never expected to wipe out so many Labour seats and this would bite them right in the backside if it went ahead - which isn't certain by a long stretch. I expect plans will change. To give him credit, Boris is a 'listener'. Many who've worked with him say the same - he listens and reacts, and surely he realises he needs to feed the hand that voted him in.
I hark back to local social media sites and there's plenty of hope that ousting (for example) Jo Platt from Leigh will be the start of turning things around, but many acknowledge the shambolic, corrupt, land-selling clowns of Wigan Labour council are a massive hurdle.
The Tories need to pump investment into the 'red wall', and be seen doing it. If nothing changes before the next GE Labour will walk straight back in. They can bypass Wigan council by getting police on the streets (mind you the corruption in GMP is horrendous), but getting a Labour council to reflect Tory investment is going to be a challenge. Especially that despicable lot in Wigan. | |
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I hark back to local social media sites and there's plenty of hope that ousting (for example) Jo Platt from Leigh will be the start of turning things around, but many acknowledge the shambolic, corrupt, land-selling clowns of Wigan Labour council are a massive hurdle.
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I also dislike the Labour councils down in London for selling off land and housing to generate money from new developments, displacing long standing residents out of their communities.
However we do have to remember that the reason these councils are doing that is because they have had their budgets slashed and been forced to be 'income generating' due to cuts from central government.
It is a classic political trick from the Conservatives to starve Labour councils of funding to force them in to being the ones making cuts and undermining the image that Labour cares about ordinary people. I wonder if Wales will be the next target area for politically driven austerity which could strategically undermine Labour. |
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