No doubt this is fake news, anyhow this surely proves the blip is only short / medium term, if you're a Bowhead Whale.

With less than a fortnight to the vote, I really haven't a clue what the outcome is going to be - interesting times!

I'm not sure what options we actually have.
It seems that accepting the deal leaves us worse off and not necessarily out of the EU (although it would still be possible) or no deal, which gets us out of the EU but will hit our pockets even harder, although we would have "control" (whatever that actually is).
A second referendum, even if it were possible, would just keep us all spinning on the Brexit merry go round and remaining in the EU would be to drive a bus through the democratic process.

I hope that Mr Farage's family are truly proud of him because what we seem to be facing wasn't mentioned by anyone.

Brave new world ? my .

I can understand that argument but the best comparison I have heard is likening it to going to Switzerland to Dignitas for assisted suicide as you have a fatal illness. When you get there you discover it is not terminal after all but you go through with it anyway.

I actually agree with you but, just because you and I think that "leaving" is a nightmare and should be avoided, doesnt mean that we should avoid it.

The majority that could be bothered to vote, wanted us out and in a cruel twist of irony, those who this decision will affect most/for longest, will indeed get to pay for their apathy.

The fall back position is that the world willl keep turning and we will be worse off by degrees, it's not quite life or death and straight forward ecconomic decisions will shape our financial future more than Brexit itself.

At the moment nobody knows if the outcome will be beneficial or not. Everything at the moment seems ok. It may change dramatically in the next few months.It may be several years before anybody can draw any firm conclusions from our leaving.
On the other hand if Teresa May somehow mages to win the vote we won’t be leaving the EU. As someone remarked it will be BINO (brexit in name only). British business will love that, the stock market will boom so farage and Johnson will have too shut up. As someone on here remarked interesting times indeed. Looking back the remain campaign was woeful, negative and doom mongers. Some of the EU benefits which are now being highlighted were hardly mentioned in the campaign to remain.

Well May's Project Fear has been unleaded with a Chancellor and supposedly independent BoE Governor saying the same things at the same time! A rerun of the doom laden Remain referendum campaign.

This thing is set to run on. If May somehow gets this ridiculous sell out through the HoC there will be a general election as dissenters and DUP will stop supporting the government (unless of course Labour's luvvie wing or LimpDems step in to save May).

Interesting times ahead.

I think that's still a possibility - there are no depths to which the Blairite wing of the Labour party won't sink to scupper Corbyn, so whilst it would undoubtedly be their last act prior to being deselected by their CLP's, they may still roll over; and after Mr Clegg accepted a role as Cameron's fag in his desperate desire for a ministerial car, one never knows what the otherwise irrelevant LibDem's will do.

I note with interest that JC moved his position slightly yesterday; if the deal does not get through, Labour will call for a vote of no confidence in the government, which would trigger a GE - and if that's not successful, a PV may be the only option - so he could still save us from this madness after all, given that the much-touted "will of the people" has clearly changed in the 2 years since the referendum. Meanwhile, the planet-sized brain of Kier Starmer is busy on manoeuvres, securing a contempt of Parliament motion if they don't publish the full legal impact analysis - which would be devastating for the government.

It's all unravelling for Mrs May and by extension, the Tory party, which is nice.

Labour have been drip-feeding their General Election agenda for a few weeks now. Someone at Labour HQ has clearly had a brainwave and decided this is their best strategy.

For the sake of forcing a General Election Labour are willing to land us with no deal. Think about that. Ignore your constituents, and push us into the worst possible scenario. Disgraceful.

Similarly, hard Remainers and Brexiteers in all parties are willing to vote against May's deal to support their agendas - although attitudes do seem to be softening as the reality hits home - it's May's deal or nothing. All their talk of 'securing a better option' is dangerous rhetoric and simply not possible. I've always said political games would be the most significant hurdle in getting a reasonable deal, and that is proving to be the case.

It's far from perfect but that was always going to be the case. And yes (as I've said for 2 years), we'll take a hit but in the long term we'll be better off, and that's before even considering the other reasons for leaving.

That said, murmurs from Labour HQ that JC is in fact in favour of May's deal...who knows...

But "in the long term" is such a fuzzy concept, that those people who will have to live through the "taking a hit" years are waking up to the fact that they've been taking enough hits for the past 8 years, and they're a bit sick of it - which is why public opinion has changed in my view; it actually wasn't the EU or immigrants - it was Tory austerity - and we've had enough thanks very much.

I admire Corbyn's approach to this - he was always playing a long game, and it appears to be paying off; because contrary to Mrs May's lies about her deal or no deal, there are other options. Meanwhile, a GE will sweep Labour into power, and a PV would see us Remain in the EU - which would be a win/win, and not the divisive two's up to democracy that many claim - as polling clearly shows now that the will of the people has changed.

I am aware from your many previous posts that economics was barely on your list of reasons for leaving.
However, please explain where the "long term we'll be better off" comes from ?

There isn't a single forecast to indicate any economic advantage for being outside the EU (even in the long term), the guff spouted by Farage and Gove doesn't count. Could you please provide a link to ANY independent prediction of prosperity.

As for the "May" deal, just how far away from your hopes and expectations is it ?

You're snowflake faux outrage noted. Interesting though that you seem to be offended by a political party attempting to end 8 years of austerity - untold misery for millions, destruction of health & education services in the name of warped ideology - but accepting & supportive of the perpetrators of that misery.

Your definition of 'it' is flawed. 'It' was being tired of towns and cities and communities changing at an unrealistically rapid rate under the weight of a seemingly never-ending influx of immigrants. 'It' was paying in billions more than we get out. 'It' was the simply unsustainable numbers game: too many, too quickly. 'It' was any criticism of immigration being shouted down amid rabid accusations of racism. 'It' was being governed by unelected, unaccountable and unremovable bodies in Brussels, all with the same agenda. 'It' was the attitude of the EU leaders to the UK's criticism of their project. 'It' was the point-blank refusal of the EU to even consider reform in the face of serious concerns expressed by the 2nd largest contributor and one of their most important members. 'It' was the flawed idea that centralised power can work across 28 economically and socially unequal nations. 'It' was the flawed idea that centralised economic policy and rules can work across 28 economically and socially unequal nations. 'It' was seeing what the Euro project has done to the Mediterranean nations. 'It' was looking ahead and not liking where the EU wants to take their project. 'It' was seeing how the EU has failed time after time when things get critical. 'It' was watching the disasters of the Common Fisheries and Common Agriculture policies. The list could go on but that's a reasonable start.

Austerity, despite being the current Remainer catchphrase, was never 'it'.

I can see you've jumped on Labour's General Election strategy. So you think it's worth voting down the deal, landing us with no deal and forcing a GE? After years of reading your strong criticism of 'stupid Brexiteers' and the 'unacceptable' economic damage of Brexit, you'd willingly take the UK down the worst possible economic option. Hypocrite much?

Bear in mind Labour are very far from guaranteed to win a GE.

So, what are these 'other options' you speak of?

*Your

Offended? A strange choice of word, although certainly a word preferred by people of a particular mindset. FYI, I don't get offended. Or outraged for that matter. I'm a calm chap.



No, I'm dismayed by the blatant hypocrisy of a political party that, for years, has predicted an earth-shattering economic disaster in the event of a no deal - and now wants to take us precisely in that direction by voting down the deal on the table.

The May deal isn't perfect, but it'll do a job. I've said all along we won't get the perfect deal - the EU isn't going to let a nation leave and give them the same benefits - but as long as we can continue to work with them we'll be fine.

Economies adapt, and the UK economy is resilient - indeed it has performed far better than most experts predicted post-referendum. Economies already adapt as markets boom and bust, as recessions come and go. The EU share of UK and global trade has been diminishing for decades while non-EU has boomed and indeed surpassed the EU from the UK's perspective. We now go out and seize that business without the restraints of the EU, whilst still trading with the EU. Any potential decrease in EU trade (likely to be marginal) can be offset by growth in non-EU trade.

The EU, meanwhile, can carry on with its political turmoil and growing dissatisfaction of many member nations, political parties and huge swathes of the populace, including the growth of far-right sentiment driven largely by their own policies. The UK will have made its decision and be in a stable place, able to reach decisions far more quickly and to trade independently.

I'm struggling to see which party you mean by that statement?

It sounds like both of 'em.

Either way, I suggest you vote for them next time, in homage, that's if you get your Utopian of "No Deal".

Not often I agree with you , but that's pretty much ' it ' in a nutshell

Here's where we have a fundamental difference of opinion.

Our trade with the EU has reached it's current level, not because the EU nations are X times better than other nations but, primarily because of our geographic proximity to one another, allowing us to make great use of just in time service to allow fast, efficient manufacturing with frictionless trade, using the relative strenghts of our closest neighbours.

We do of course trade furhter afield with China, India, Bangaldesh etc, etc but, whilst some of our trade with the EU could be replaced, much of our "set up" has occured to best service our largest export market.

THe one certainty is that, should trading within the EU become more problematic (post Brexit) many of the international companies, currently situated in the UK but servicing the EU export market will simply re locate to within the EU, not to mention our "jewel in the crown" finance sector, which the Germans and French would love to "steal" from us.

A few cheaper imposrts simply wont fill the hole.

What on earth makes you think no deal is my 'utopia'? Reading not your strong point?



If you're struggling to understand there's probably not much point in explaining. But let's give it a go: Labour's official position is to vote against the deal. The majority of Tories will vote for the deal.

No argument with any of that.

And in view of this, one wonders why you're not lobbying Labour HQ to vote for the deal? After all, with a deal in place all of that can and will continue, largely unfettered. In the event of a no deal then yes, we risk losing a lot - and that is exactly what Labour is steering us towards in their attempt to provoke a General Election.

The deal as I understand it, is typical Teresa May stuff, keep everything simmering but not actually face the issue.

Ireland has a stay of execution but, still remains the elephant in the room, we have a temporary customs union which we may or may not be able to extract ourselves from and we remain governed by EU law, whilst sacrificing our ability to affect it (our veto will no longer apply).

Do you think this is acceptable, because, it appears worse than we currently have.
As for lobbying Labour HQ, I believe they are only bothered about thie own political future and couldnt give a tinkers toss about whether we are in or out.
The have NEVER properly comitted to leave or remain and merely hoped thet the Tories would implode (still possible).
Immigration from the EU has understandably slowed and yet "controlled" immigration from elsewhere is already rising - maybe there was an agenda on this all along, there certainly was from certain sectors of the country.

The whole concept of LEAVE was built on a sham, driven primarily by some very wealthy right wing "Tories" who, have safely protected their wealth off shore and yet it iw they who want us to leave the EU and the masses are too dumb to realise that they were being sold a pup.

My apologies oh omnipotent one, there was me thinking you were a proponent of walking away from the dastardly E.U. or did you believe, like many of the buffoons, we would get an perfect divorce settlement?



Again, thank you for your succinct reply, your condescension is only outweighed by your obvious outrage that things aren't going to plan.

Why should Labour M.P's vote for a rubbish deal just because it's the best the Tories could manage to cobble together, after two & a half years?

If you seriously believe that the average Leave voter had even a fraction of that in mind when voting, you're hopeful, but deluded; immigration, cocking a snook at the establishment, and a steady diet of lies and rhetoric were the catalyst for this particular act of national self-harm, and I suspect you know that very well.

As for Labour's position - it certainly isn't this deal or no deal, and you do yourself a huge disservice by swallowing Mrs May's lies and repeating them here - it's simply not the case; the EU will talk again, and Labour already has a credible alternative, along the Norway model. How anyone who allies themselves with the Tories has the brass neck to talk about party politics when this whole mess is driven by the internal machinations of a fatally divided Tory party, I will never know - the death of irony!

Amusingly, whilst Mrs May still blows her racist dog-whistle, talking about ending free movement and EU citizens "jumping the queue," and sits in a select committee being humiliated by Yvette Cooper (of all people) over her wrongheaded attitude to migration - news emerges that a) ending EU migration will have a negative effect on the economy and b) whilst EU net migration has fallen, non EU migration has risen considerably - and looks set to continue to do so; a form of migration that as Home Sec, Mrs May *could* have controlled but failed to; and a form of migration that will incense the gammons even more, cos they're brown and black.

This Government is an absolute show - the country is falling apart, the UN has branded their policies cruel and inhumane, and local councils are cancelling essential services due to lack of funds; meanwhile, we get to watch a group of Tory buffoons twist and turn like twisty turny things, in an attempt to appease all the lunatic factions of their party with a deal that won't satisfy anyone, and by the admission of their own Chancellor, will make us significantly worse off. It's time for a change.

I agree with all of the above apart from, I believe that Corbyn has been bloody awful in regards to Brexit.
Labour appear to be closet remainers, without the balls to admit it.
Their "6 tests" would never be satisfied by either the Tories or Labour themselves (should they ever get into power).
I agree that the whole thing is a shambles but, Labours position on this is far from coherant and should Mr Corbyn get his dream of becoming prime minister, what do you think that he and Labour will actually do.
His party line is "a Brexit for jobs and workers rights", which is pretty close to what Mrs May says she has offered.

If we had another vote I think the leave margin would be even greater - so it would interesting to see if either party has the guts to offer it up.

As discussed the lies were equally large on both sides - just the leave lies were more appealing.

Corbyn has been a leaver all his political life and as such it is reflected in his low-key support for the remain campaign.

Nobody could do a deal to suit everyone that is why for me no deal - with all its ramifications - would be the simplest exit strategy. The idea that we can't leave unless the EU say so simply wont get anywhere. Macron has already stated that he wants access to our shipping waters before he allows us to leave - really!!

Goods don't just move freely across the existing Irish border especially live stock - not sure why a physical border is needed at all.

The biggest single country we trade with is the US - a no deal has no impact on that I am more confident than most that leaving with no deal will not be as bad as many fear.

One thing is for sure if the vote is overturned without another referendum that will have a significant negative impact on the democratic process.

You throw in the USA as the biggest single country that we trade with but, just how is this relevent.
Our trade with them is circa 80 billion ?? and with the EU 500 billion. THe deal with hte EU is slightly more impotant or, perhaps you think we can do trade deale with seperate EU countries ??

The physical border in Ireland isn't currently neccessary but, it sure as hell used to be and some of those border towns were smugglers paradise.
IF we dont have a free trade deal with the EU, goods of all types, especially those with substantially different tax rates would be moved in both directions and one hell of a rate (just as they did back in the day).