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| Quote ="majorhound"Trump seems determined to try and undermine and undo whatever the Obama administration did. I think it's a personal thing with him. But apparently those providing the rationale for this latest outburst, are the self same people who said that Sadam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. And we all know where that led us. Our government should be warned by Blair's mistakes and steer well clear. Hang on for the November mid-terms and hope they destroy his majority in the Congress. IMO that would stop his gallop.'"
I actually think that Trump believes he can do anything and whether he is right or wrong, he will get his own way until someone is brave enough to stand up to him.
Let's face it, with the possible exception of Russia, The USA have more weapons than anyone else and if he's prepared to look serious, he will prevail, until someone ants to test him and then we could all be in trouble.
It does seem strange that Obama and the more powerful EU nations thought that the current deal would maintain peace and yet, The Donald, a man with little previous political experience, thinks that everyone else was wrong.
Right now, after his "success" with Korea, he probably feels indestructible. |
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There's a heck of a long way to go in Korea before you can say it's a success.
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While I'm absolutely a supporter of improving relations with Iran, this deal always had enormous question marks over it.
For starters, it's widely known Iran acquired ex-Soviet nuclear weapons from Kazakhstan, Ukraine and North Korea, and has most likely developed and tested a nuclear weapon of its own design in North Korea.
So whether they're allowed to enrich plutonium to weapons-grade quality is largely irrelevant. They have the means and the knowledge - and possibly the weapons - already. Indeed, they've just said they could achieve weapons-grade enrichment in a matter of days.
Iran remain as committed to their programme of aggressive expansion in the region as their adversaries, Saudi Arabia and Israel. Their influence in Iraq and the proxy war in Syria is evidence enough of that. I could never shake the feeling Iran got the best of all worlds from the deal.
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There's a bit of a 'Gorby effect' with respect to Obama, whereby the outside world seems to want to lionise everything he did whilst in his own country he had a lot of detractors.
That's not to say Trump has any real strategy with respect to Iran, but the deal had a 'peace in our time' feel to it, and a lot of people had reservations about it giving away a lot for not very much.
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Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"There's a bit of a 'Gorby effect' with respect to Obama, whereby the outside world seems to want to lionise everything he did whilst in his own country he had a lot of detractors.
That's not to say Trump has any real strategy with respect to Iran, but the deal had a 'peace in our time' feel to it, and a lot of people had reservations about it giving away a lot for not very much.'"
Obama had a very high approval rating in January 2017 after 8 years in office.
news.gallup.com/poll/116479/bara ... roval.aspx
The Iran deal was a real politik deal. Iran is a large country with a large population. If they don't find one way of expanding their power, they'll find another. This deal steered them down a track acceptable to the west. Trump is a monomaniac, who hates everything Obama stood for and spent years accusing him of not being born in the US, and thus a fraud. IMO Trump is a disaster for the US and the rest of us. Worse than Bush. But because of the ridiculous US electoral system they're stuck with him and so are the rest of us. G W Bush who was also elected on a minority of the vote proved that given hold of the levers of power it's possible to get re-elected. He turned out to be a disaster, and this guy IMO is worse.
The attacks by Israel on Iranian units in Syria today indicated that Israel feels Iran is fair game, and the brakes are off. The claim that they are responding to an Iranian attack have the flavour of the Gleiwitz incident which was the Nazis' excuse for the invasion of Poland. |
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Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"There's a bit of a 'Gorby effect' with respect to Obama, whereby the outside world seems to want to lionise everything he did whilst in his own country he had a lot of detractors.
That's not to say Trump has any real strategy with respect to Iran, but the deal had a 'peace in our time' feel to it, and a lot of people had reservations about it giving away a lot for not very much.'"
Obama had a very high approval rating in January 2017 after 8 years in office.
news.gallup.com/poll/116479/bara ... roval.aspx
The Iran deal was a real politik deal. Iran is a large country with a large population. If they don't find one way of expanding their power, they'll find another. This deal steered them down a track acceptable to the west. Trump is a monomaniac, who hates everything Obama stood for and spent years accusing him of not being born in the US, and thus a fraud. IMO Trump is a disaster for the US and the rest of us. Worse than Bush. But because of the ridiculous US electoral system they're stuck with him and so are the rest of us. G W Bush who was also elected on a minority of the vote proved that given hold of the levers of power it's possible to get re-elected. He turned out to be a disaster, and this guy IMO is worse.
The attacks by Israel on Iranian units in Syria today indicated that Israel feels Iran is fair game, and the brakes are off. The claim that they are responding to an Iranian attack have the flavour of the Gleiwitz incident which was the Nazis' excuse for the invasion of Poland. | |
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The inconsistency of approach when you compare how the West deals with Iran and Saudi Arabia is what gets me. Both regimes are autocratic theocracies that have a malign influence on neighbouring countries and ones further afield. Yet despite that one gets a free pass.
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Iran's huge increase in military spending since the deal was signed is worrying, as is their continued sponsorship of Hamas and Hezbollah. However, the huge increase in military spending at a time of borderline economic crisis, and declining living standards for the Iranian public saw public trust and approval of the ayatollah's regime at a near all time low, with protests erupting all over the country. Another year of currency deflation and economic hardship could well have seen the toppling of this stain of a regime, but pulling out of the deal has vindicated the Iranian hardliners' distrust of America and the skepticism towards the deal. Now it seems like the only way we'll see regime change in Iran is through external intervention as a diplomatic solution now seems further away than it did when Ahmadinejad was Prime minister.
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Why don't the Republicans behave like any other political party in defeat. OK parties don't like losing power. Bu the Republicans, going right back to Kennedy seem to really resent losing power, and attempt to undermine, denigrate and try to remove the Democrat incumbent.
I've been reading a book, Kennedy, The Road to Dallas, given the hatred, and I mean tangible hatred in that city for Kennedy, it is no surprise that he was killed. OK Oswald was a Communist supporter, but I reckon that someone pretending to sympathise put him up to it.
Then we have Clinton. they had the majority in the Congress and spent a minimum of $30m taxpayers cash trying to pin something on him.
Now we have Obama, and Trump never fails to try and undo anything Obama has done.
Reading the Kennedy book, there must be some really screwy nasty people in the Republican party, and effectively they are the government of the most powerful nation on earth. Scary.
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| Quote ="Bullseye"The inconsistency of approach when you compare how the West deals with Iran and Saudi Arabia is what gets me. Both regimes are autocratic theocracies that have a malign influence on neighbouring countries and ones further afield. Yet despite that one gets a free pass.'"
Because Iran doesn’t directly buy arms from the West. Upset the Saudis and the west will go bankrupt. That’s the difference. The Saudis blatant disregard for human rights is astounding and ‘Murica and the tories do nothing about it, but should a tiny country that no one has ever heard of decide to jail someone for theft then the west will rain missiles on them. It’s all about money
Regards
King James |
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Another massacre at an American school (10 dead in Texas), I wonder what Trumps views are now, with regards to arming teachers.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Another massacre at an American school (10 dead in Texas), I wonder what Trumps views are now, with regards to arming teachers.'"
For anyone that has facebook. Just search Jonathon pies response from February. It won’t apply to right wings like Cronus but the rest of us it hits home
Regards
King James |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Another massacre at an American school (10 dead in Texas), I wonder what Trumps views are now, with regards to arming teachers.'"
What a ty situation. There are 2 depressing things that occur to me with each shooting.
1. It's 'standard' news. Horrific, but not a shock any more. Ok, so apparently there's been some wedding on this week but the shooting was headlines for half a day and soon faded. A massacre of kids should be at the forefront of all our minds.
2. Unfortunately Trump and the NRA cockwombles might actually be right on the schools solution. Hear me out. Guns reform is not going to happen - at least not to any meaningful degree that would remove of most of the 300+ million guns in the US or even just the infamous AR-15s and other civvy assault rifles. And that's before you begin to consider the millions of nutjobs willing to die before the Feds get their hands on their toys. The sad truth is that unless a miracle occurs and true reform begins, and now that school shootings are pretty much the norm, the only real option to protect kids in schools is to provide more protection. Airport-style security doesn't work. An occasional armed guard clearly isn't effective. Until there's a true political solution nothing the only desperate option is a rapid response, which means, sadly, more people on the spot with guns, or access to them.
The horse has probably long bolted on the US guns problem. |
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Quote ="Cronus"What a ty situation. There are 2 depressing things that occur to me with each shooting.
1. It's 'standard' news. Horrific, but not a shock any more. Ok, so apparently there's been some wedding on this week but the shooting was headlines for half a day and soon faded. A massacre of kids should be at the forefront of all our minds.
2. Unfortunately Trump and the NRA cockwombles might actually be right on the schools solution. Hear me out. Guns reform is not going to happen - at least not to any meaningful degree that would remove of most of the 300+ million guns in the US or even just the infamous AR-15s and other civvy assault rifles. And that's before you begin to consider the millions of nutjobs willing to die before the Feds get their hands on their toys. The sad truth is that unless a miracle occurs and true reform begins, and now that school shootings are pretty much the norm, the only real option to protect kids in schools is to provide more protection. Airport-style security doesn't work. An occasional armed guard clearly isn't effective. Until there's a true political solution nothing the only desperate option is a rapid response, which means, sadly, more people on the spot with guns, or access to them.
The horse has probably long bolted on the US guns problem.'"
I also don't think you can ban gun ownership in the US, but you could restrict who has one, make it difficult to get one, and certainly ban the sale of semi automatic weapons. No one except a soldier needs an AK47.
The NRA lavishes cash on members of congress, and they are scared stiff of losing that cash. But it should be obvious that some sort of control is needed. After all they have it next door
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Canada |
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Quote ="Cronus"What a ty situation. There are 2 depressing things that occur to me with each shooting.
1. It's 'standard' news. Horrific, but not a shock any more. Ok, so apparently there's been some wedding on this week but the shooting was headlines for half a day and soon faded. A massacre of kids should be at the forefront of all our minds.
2. Unfortunately Trump and the NRA cockwombles might actually be right on the schools solution. Hear me out. Guns reform is not going to happen - at least not to any meaningful degree that would remove of most of the 300+ million guns in the US or even just the infamous AR-15s and other civvy assault rifles. And that's before you begin to consider the millions of nutjobs willing to die before the Feds get their hands on their toys. The sad truth is that unless a miracle occurs and true reform begins, and now that school shootings are pretty much the norm, the only real option to protect kids in schools is to provide more protection. Airport-style security doesn't work. An occasional armed guard clearly isn't effective. Until there's a true political solution nothing the only desperate option is a rapid response, which means, sadly, more people on the spot with guns, or access to them.
The horse has probably long bolted on the US guns problem.'"
I also don't think you can ban gun ownership in the US, but you could restrict who has one, make it difficult to get one, and certainly ban the sale of semi automatic weapons. No one except a soldier needs an AK47.
The NRA lavishes cash on members of congress, and they are scared stiff of losing that cash. But it should be obvious that some sort of control is needed. After all they have it next door
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_Canada | |
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One thing I find interesting is how non Americans feel free to comment on gun control (and other issues) in the US as though we actually have some say in it (including me). If anything I expect a bunch of Europeans/others crying over such events probably strengthens nutters' resolve to keep guns in place. After all, a minority of such people claim these shootings are fake.
The bottom line is that after witnessing the horror of these events there just isn't the same reaction as in the case of say the UK following Lockerbie. Even Sandy Hook didn't get the same national reaction, and in many ways it was just like Lockerbie.
The only (small) glimmer of hope for any sanity coming into the gun control debate is if the kids themselves use social media etc to outflank the NRA, which started to happen after the last big one in Florida.
The only other thing that could (maybe? hopefully?) help is changing the way these things are reported. As an example school shootings in the US has a wikipedia page. It lists all the events, number of fatalities and injuries etc. Its like a league table for troubled teens with access to firearms, and there are any number of articles examining the killers themselves. In a horribly distorted way some of these kids clearly think that they want to be famous/infamous like the Columbine killers.
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| Quote ="Cronus"What a ty situation. There are 2 depressing things that occur to me with each shooting.
1. It's 'standard' news. Horrific, but not a shock any more. Ok, so apparently there's been some wedding on this week but the shooting was headlines for half a day and soon faded. A massacre of kids should be at the forefront of all our minds.
2. Unfortunately Trump and the NRA cockwombles might actually be right on the schools solution. Hear me out. Guns reform is not going to happen - at least not to any meaningful degree that would remove of most of the 300+ million guns in the US or even just the infamous AR-15s and other civvy assault rifles. And that's before you begin to consider the millions of nutjobs willing to die before the Feds get their hands on their toys. The sad truth is that unless a miracle occurs and true reform begins, and now that school shootings are pretty much the norm, the only real option to protect kids in schools is to provide more protection. Airport-style security doesn't work. An occasional armed guard clearly isn't effective. Until there's a true political solution nothing the only desperate option is a rapid response, which means, sadly, more people on the spot with guns, or access to them.
The horse has probably long bolted on the US guns problem.'"
Totally agree.
Until there is at least some desire to try and change, these events will become ever more commonplace and at some point their president has to stand up and say that enough is enough and try to turn the tide.
I agree that it's too late but, even a late start may start to turn the tide.
They are so well practiced at the post massacre apologies and "anger", that they have lost any hint of true meaning.
It would take a huge laying down of arms and a gun amnesty plus huge political will to even make a start and Trump is not the guy for this.
At least Obama seemed to want to try and do something. |
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[At least Obama seemed to want to try and do something.'"
All the more reason for Trump to do nothing.
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| Quote ="Cronus"What a ty situation. '"
I certainly don't have an easy answer but more arms is not a start. That will just inflame the situation. Nutjobs already know there are armed guards at schools & that doesn't stop them. I think it will just make the initial confrontation even more violent & put teachers at even greater risk. Teachers aren't John McClane as much as Trump & large sections of USA might think. |
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The answer, if ever there's to be one, lies in the corruption at the heart of US politics, and how campaigns and parties are funded; lobbyists in US politics pump billions into the candidates that will advance their particular interests - and those representatives become bought and paid for.
From what I can see, the NRA is far from one of the biggest spenders - but it also has a very sophisticated PR wing that can mobilise the large numbers of citizens who want to retain the right to bear arms; politicians who speak out in favour of gun control are targeted and trashed, with the enthusiastic support of Fox News, which makes the BBC look positively independent.
It's a bizarre cultural phenomenon - and it would take a seismic shift to get them to lay down the guns; clearly, the deaths of hundreds of kids is not sufficiently serious to change enough minds.
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| Quote ="bren2k"The answer, if ever there's to be one, lies in the corruption at the heart of US politics, and how campaigns and parties are funded; lobbyists in US politics pump billions into the candidates that will advance their particular interests - and those representatives become bought and paid for.
From what I can see, the NRA is far from one of the biggest spenders - but it also has a very sophisticated PR wing that can mobilise the large numbers of citizens who want to retain the right to bear arms; politicians who speak out in favour of gun control are targeted and trashed, with the enthusiastic support of Fox News, which makes the BBC look positively independent.
It's a bizarre cultural phenomenon - and it would take a seismic shift to get them to lay down the guns; clearly, the deaths of hundreds of kids is not sufficiently serious to change enough minds.'"
That's obviously sadly true, but an entire cultural shift is needed. Kids pick up guns because they are easily available, but what sort of society makes people actually want to do that? There are plenty of countries with relatively high gun ownership but only a fraction of the gun deaths. What is it about America that makes kids so unhappy/dissatisfied/angry? I think that a nation that every 10 or 15 minutes bombards its kids with false advertising of happiness through buying unnecessary crap shouldn't be surprised when kids aren't happy.
“Happiness for me is just being; just being at any given moment. If you are searching for happiness, you are not happy.”
Benedict Cumberbatch |
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An [url=https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/oct/06/americans-guns-nra-las-vegas-shootinginteresting piece[/url by Gary Younge, written straight after the Las Vegas mass shooting.
This paragraph is telling:
"In a society that fetishises self-reliance, the gun speaks to rugged individualism – each person should be responsible for saving themselves. In a political culture that favours small government, the gun stands as a counterpoint to a lumbering and inefficient state – defend yourself, because by the time the police get there you’ll be dead. It underpins a certain sense of masculinity and homestead – a real man should be able to protect his family and home."
How you break down that culture, given that the right to bear arms was written into the constitution after they kicked us out, I really don't know; I can't see any meaningful change in my lifetime.
To the point about why American kids are so unhappy and resort to mass shootings - I don't think they're any more unhappy than anywhere else - they just have easy access to military grade weapons; where a disaffected or mentally unstable kid in the UK might be delinquent, difficult, violent and aggressive - a US kid can get hold of an AR15 and mow down dozens of people?
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| Quote ="bren2k"
To the point about why American kids are so unhappy and resort to mass shootings - I don't think they're any more unhappy than anywhere else - they just have easy access to military grade weapons; where a disaffected or mentally unstable kid in the UK might be delinquent, difficult, violent and aggressive - a US kid can get hold of an AR15 and mow down dozens of people?'"
Nail on head. That, and the wide reporting of these shootings (inevitable) which has already planted the seeds of an idea in the disturbed, disaffected heads of other troubled kids. I reckon there are many more disturbed kids who would be capable of such things, but it's just the pieces haven't quite fallen into place for them, for he majority they maybe never quite will, luckily, but there will always be some where they do. Like all other types of US shootings, it has become an established thing and periodically they will reoccur.
Gun control to the extent that such kids couldn't obtain a killing weapon is something I can't ever see happening. As someone else said, that horse has very long ago bolted. |
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| Quote ="bren2k"
To the point about why American kids are so unhappy and resort to mass shootings - I don't think they're any more unhappy than anywhere else - they just have easy access to military grade weapons; where a disaffected or mentally unstable kid in the UK might be delinquent, difficult, violent and aggressive - a US kid can get hold of an AR15 and mow down dozens of people?'"
I do think they are more unhappy - or more dissatisfied. American kids can be nearly 100 times more likely to be prescribed anti-psychotic drugs than European kids. That is obviously a societal thing - it is the first response in USA whereas it is probably the last in some European countries, partly influenced by a medical system that will exploit any situation for profit. But there must be more to it than the availability of guns. There are not a third of the mass shootings in other countries with that proportion of guns in society. American kids are exposed to real violence more than most & media violence, usually with the good guys winning, more than anyone. |
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Personally I believe the reason is not that American kids are more prone to this behaviour, it's that they have easier access to firearms. I remember reading somewhere that the highest suicide figures in the UK are among farmers, vets, doctors and dentists. Why? Because they have easier access to the means than the rest of us.
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https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2011to2015
Main points
There were 18,998 suicides in men and women aged between 20 and 64 years between 2011 and 2015, which constitutes a rate of around 12 deaths for every 100,000 people per year; for around 7 in 10 (13,232) of these suicides, an occupation was provided at the time of death registration.
Males working in the lowest-skilled occupations had a 44% higher risk of suicide than the male national average; the risk among males in skilled trades was 35% higher.
The risk of suicide among low-skilled male labourers, particularly those working in construction roles, was 3 times higher than the male national average.
For males working in skilled trades, the highest risk was among building finishing trades; particularly, plasterers and painters and decorators had more than double the risk of suicide than the male national average.
The risk of suicide was elevated for those in culture, media and sport occupations for males (20% higher than the male average) and females (69% higher); risk was highest among those working in artistic, literary and media occupations.
For females, the risk of suicide among health professionals was 24% higher than the female national average; this is largely explained by high suicide risk among female nurses.
Male and female carers had a risk of suicide that was almost twice the national average.
Females within the teaching and education profession had a lower risk of suicide but specifically for primary and nursery schoolteachers there was evidence of an elevated risk.
Individuals working in roles as managers, directors and senior officials – the highest paid occupation group – had the lowest risk of suicide. Among corporate managers and directors the risk of suicide was more than 70% lower for both sexes.
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https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulation ... 2011to2015
Main points
There were 18,998 suicides in men and women aged between 20 and 64 years between 2011 and 2015, which constitutes a rate of around 12 deaths for every 100,000 people per year; for around 7 in 10 (13,232) of these suicides, an occupation was provided at the time of death registration.
Males working in the lowest-skilled occupations had a 44% higher risk of suicide than the male national average; the risk among males in skilled trades was 35% higher.
The risk of suicide among low-skilled male labourers, particularly those working in construction roles, was 3 times higher than the male national average.
For males working in skilled trades, the highest risk was among building finishing trades; particularly, plasterers and painters and decorators had more than double the risk of suicide than the male national average.
The risk of suicide was elevated for those in culture, media and sport occupations for males (20% higher than the male average) and females (69% higher); risk was highest among those working in artistic, literary and media occupations.
For females, the risk of suicide among health professionals was 24% higher than the female national average; this is largely explained by high suicide risk among female nurses.
Male and female carers had a risk of suicide that was almost twice the national average.
Females within the teaching and education profession had a lower risk of suicide but specifically for primary and nursery schoolteachers there was evidence of an elevated risk.
Individuals working in roles as managers, directors and senior officials – the highest paid occupation group – had the lowest risk of suicide. Among corporate managers and directors the risk of suicide was more than 70% lower for both sexes.
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| Quote ="bren2k"The answer, if ever there's to be one, lies in the corruption at the heart of US politics, and how campaigns and parties are funded'"
George Soros. |
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