there are plenty of other course options other than A'Levels.

I went to one of the better state high schools in Leeds - my GCSE maths set had 38 kids in it. in A-Level Maths we didn't even have enough textbooks to go round. I know this is a bit of an extreme example but this just isn't something private schools have to deal with.

I have friends who went to a few different private schools, their average class size was about 10-15, in state schools the class sizes are about 30. Having two to three times as much direct contact time with the must have a massive impact on attainment.

How the did we go from discussing the morals of zero hours contracts, to the quality of education in private and state schools?

You might well be right.

Doesn't everything come back to what that naaughty Yank said - in Britain we don't produce anything (more strictly, enough things) that people want to buy? Those Germans produce things that people want to buy and are willing to pay a premium for because they are pretty well made.

The other night I caught the end of a TV program where someone took his family to live and work in Germany "as Germans" not working for a UK company. The bloke ended up working as an employee on the shop floor in a pencil factory for Faber-Castell. They were actually manufacturing pencils.

Pencils are not high value, high margin products but Faber-Castell make a go of it and can be profitable employing about 900 people in Germany doing so.

The workers were well paid, no zero hour contracts in sight and the business profitable.

Perhaps the way things are done in Germany allows companies like them to survive?

Here is a link to the company which is worth a quick read as it sets out their attitude to its employees across the world:

[url=http://www.faber-castell.co.uk/43201/The-Company/Our-global-commitment/Our-global-commitment/fcv2_index.aspxFaber-Castell[/url

If Faber-Castell were a UK company listed on the stock exchange I reckon ALL production would have been banished to China long ago.

If there was anything left in the UK it would be a few sales staff and the office cleaners (the cleaners on zero hours contracts).

So if we don't produce anything people want to buy it's because in part we have no idea how to keep the production here or no will at the policy level (most likely IMO) to create an environment where a company like Faber-Castell cold thrive.

Not really.
For example, Britain produces a million cars a year, three-quarters of which are exported (despite the recession, more cars were exported in 2012 than [uever[/u before, however you count them, whether as a percentage or empirical numbers) ... that suggests that a) Britain can still manufacture and b) people want to buy them.

The UK could, of course, produce and export a lot more ... but that's not the same as saying that we don't or that the quality isn't good.

In fact, many UK companies are now bringing their manufacturing back to the UK, to keep an eye on quality and to shorten their supply chains.

Also, UK manufacturing, in terms of value, has continued to increase pretty much year-on-year since the end of WWII.
Manufacturing nowadays occupies a smaller space in terms of the overall employment and GDP of the UK, but we must take into account the huge increase in service and financial industries which have grown much faster.

Also, don't forget, back in the old days if you worked in a works canteen, you were classed as working in manufacturing, whereas nowadays that would often be outsourced to a catering company, so you'd be classed as working in catering. Ditto for site security, back-office functions, IT, company pensions, etc etc. Hence the numbers working in "manufacturing" would have shrunk by maybe up to a quarter or a third of the "manufacturing" workforce simply by outsourcing the non-manufacturing non-core functions.
Add to that the increases in productivity via automation and you can see why, although manufacturing output has carried on growing, employment in manufacturing has shrunk as a percentage of the workforce.

So, we [ucan[/u do it and we [udo[/u do it ... but we could do more balance the economy.

Faber Castell are a good example of a Mittelstand company, i.e. a family-owned SME which sees its two-way relationship with its workforce as being vital for productivity, employee loyalty and quality.

When Dyson moved their production to the far east, James Dyson cited his local council's refusal to grant planning permission for an extension to the factory as the reason. Now I may be doing Sir James a great disservice here but if that really was the reason, did he find it impossible to locate suitable premises a little closer than China?

You've possibly picked a bad example as pencil manufacturing for one of the worlds best known brands is Derwent, still manufactured in Cumbria - unfortunately their web site seems to have gone tits up at the moment so I can't check that their manufacturing facility is still based in Cumbria

Quote ="JerryChicken"You've possibly picked a bad example as pencil manufacturing for one of the worlds best known brands is Derwent, still manufactured in Cumbria - unfortunately their web site seems to have gone tits up at the moment so I can't check that their manufacturing facility is still based in Cumbria '" Yup, still made there ... www.pencils.co.uk/

Quote ="JerryChicken"You've possibly picked a bad example as pencil manufacturing for one of the worlds best known brands is Derwent, still manufactured in Cumbria - unfortunately their web site seems to have gone tits up at the moment so I can't check that their manufacturing facility is still based in Cumbria '" Yup, still made there ... www.pencils.co.uk/

Far from being bad, I think it's a great example.

What would be interesting is to compare the two companies in terms of:

Scope of supply

Ownership

Profitability

Number of employees

etc

Believe it or not we actually parked in the "pencil museum" car park when stopping off in Cumbria on the way back from a trip to Edinburgh. I got the impression manufacturing wasn't a big operation and it would be interesting to compare the two operations, here and Germany.

One thing I am always reminded of when discussions like this arise is the old "Trouble Shooter" program Sir John Harvey Jones (ex ICI boss) used to front.

One of the companies he went to see was a Chinaware manufacturer in Stoke. They were determined to be listed on the stock exchange. [uJones advised against it.[/u They were listed and to cut a long story short the only things left in the UK when he returned later were a design and sales office. All manufacturing had gone to the far east. They were once a UK equivalent of a "Mittelstand" company but once that ceased so did the UK manufacturing jobs.

As a general thread related point "Mittelstand" just goes to show what a pile of nonsense zero hours contracts are IMO.

As a brand its known worldwide but the interesting thing about comparing the two web sites (above) and also the manufacturer Staedtler (also German) is that of those three world renown brands only Derwent don't produce anything for the technical design market, other than a simple pencil of course - both Faber and Staedtler have always specialised in tools for architects & other design trades whereas Derwent is pure art focused.

I haven't been to the pencil museum in Keswick (although I suspect that I have supported it financially over the years) but looking at the main company web site their production facility seems of a decent size and they do state that their pencils are manufactured in the UK, and there is a huge range, plus their paper products which from memory I can't recall Faber or Staedtler being involved with.

Actually I correct myself there, I do have an A3 pad of Staedtler ink sketching paper of a type that I have never seen before in art shops but was given to me by an architect friend who uses it quite extensively (he is an old fashioned architect who STILL draws by hand, his practice is getting to be like a museum for architects these days).

Damn those conversations for not sticking to an absolutely specific subject.

Funny you should mention that: I'm just talking to an artist down here (south of France) about using social media better in order to forward a commercial operation. The internet stuff is still being ignored or, at best, done badly by some.

You should refer him to Mick Oxley and the band of businesses in his village and district that Tweet and FB constantly to promote themselves - thats the way to do it.

If you want to show him other examples I have favourited (is that a word) a lot of professional artists FB sites and Groups that he can join, if he has a smartphone then he can post "on the easel" type posts once a day with one minute to spare

Derwent was a brand of the Cumberland Pencil Co. which was an old established but small manufacturer. In the mid 60's early 70's I worked for the Eagle Pencil Company which had several leading quality pencil brands such as 'Mirado' (trade) 'Turquoise' (technical) 'Graduate' & 'Verithin' (educational) I visited schools, colleges and local authorities in the north of England giving talks and demonstrating the various products to teachers and specifiers. If ever the name of 'Cumberland pencils' came up I would mention the 'Staedtler' take over in my best German accent which was enough to prick a hole in the comfy Lake District image they tried to float.

Eagle had a large pencil factory in Tottenham (purpose built in 1906) which was an amazing place with bespoke machines with very active pulleys, belts, cedarwood and laquer smells and noise over three floors. Here they made a range of pencils with 17 degrees from 6B to 9H (including and F) and were the leading supplier to schools (each with grosses of pencils each year) and the likes of Rolls Royce technical drawing offices. I think the factory relocated to Kings Lynn in the 90's. In the 60's Eagle bought out Hardmuths (German), Margros (paint and art products) and Venus Esterbrook-Papermate and rebranded the group as Berol It is still selling its brand leading products.

I'm not clear what this bit means.
Did Staedtler own Cumberland back then?

Great memories, there's nothing quite like taking a new pencil out of the box for the first time, better still if its one of those pencils that are just sticks of wood with no sharpened end yet, better even still if you have one of those old pencil sharpeners that clamp to a desk and mechanically grip the pencil while you turn a handle to sharpen it - the points you get on those are lethal



And there is a world of difference between a cheap pencil and a "good" one and you usually find that out when you try and sharpen it - its all trivial and silly I know but they are tools to me and a good one is like finding a good chisel that you never want to lose or lend to anyone.

Am I right in saying that in GB the shareholders, by law, come first, re profits, whilst in Germany the workers, the home base i.e keeping work within the town etc, all have to be taken into consideration before cutting wages / hiving off the profitable portions of the company to overseas.
If so, it's a no brainer why things are better for the workers over there.

Anyone know if this is true ?

Don't know about the above but it is certainly harder to lay people off. Can't remember whether it's 6 or 12 months notice and the company has to help the employee find new work either within their organisation or elsewhere. Rules in Switzerland are similar.

All that regulation must be killing the Swiss and German economies! (Not).

Not sure this is 100% reliable but it chimes-in with conversations I've had with German colleagues ... worldemploymentlaw.com/Germany-N ... eriod.html

Not sure this is 100% reliable but it chimes-in with conversations I've had with German colleagues ... worldemploymentlaw.com/Germany-N ... eriod.html

I had completely lost interest in this thread after Mintball completely boshed it as usual when anyone doesn't bow down to her pronouncements!!

Back on topic - I have stated my view on zero hour contracts i.e. completely unnecessary - a sympton of lazy management.

You have omitted to comment on why Germany, despite having many, many of the sort of rules that, in your opinion would ruin a country's economy, is nonetheless nowhere near being an economic basket case.