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| Quote ="Mild Rover"I don’t mean a programmable robot, but a genuine (currently hypothetical) sentient AI, free from human desires - including the desire for personal status and remuneration.
Your priorities - positive human interactions, robustness, appropriately structured - all seem nice and sensible. What is interesting to me is what is missing from the list that often seem to be among the non-brochure/prospectus version of corporate priorities.'"
so, no sense of self, achievement, desire, ambition?
a very sterile world, and not really an example of evolution. But then evolution is subjective.
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Quote ="IR80"so, no sense of self, achievement, desire, ambition?
a very sterile world, and not really an example of evolution. But then evolution is subjective.'"
You don't think selflessness and equanimity are useful qualities for optimal performance of this role?
The danger, I reckon, is when somebody tells it save the environment and it starts exterminating us.
Hopefully it'll be smart enough to read between the lines, and investor relations would still know to put an optimistic spin on information and it'll ensure that HR is aware that it is there to protect the company first and employees second.
I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.
Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?
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Quote ="IR80"so, no sense of self, achievement, desire, ambition?
a very sterile world, and not really an example of evolution. But then evolution is subjective.'"
You don't think selflessness and equanimity are useful qualities for optimal performance of this role?
The danger, I reckon, is when somebody tells it save the environment and it starts exterminating us.
Hopefully it'll be smart enough to read between the lines, and investor relations would still know to put an optimistic spin on information and it'll ensure that HR is aware that it is there to protect the company first and employees second.
I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.
Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?
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Quote ="Mild Rover"You don't think selflessness and equanimity are useful qualities for optimal performance of this role?
The danger, I reckon, is when somebody tells it save the environment and it starts exterminating us.
Hopefully it'll be smart enough to read between the lines, and investor relations would still know to put an optimistic spin on information and it'll ensure that HR is aware that it is there to protect the company first and employees second.
I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.
Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?'"
AI pipe dreams and fantasy, not a future we are likely to see, nor one I want.
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Quote ="Mild Rover"You don't think selflessness and equanimity are useful qualities for optimal performance of this role?
The danger, I reckon, is when somebody tells it save the environment and it starts exterminating us.
Hopefully it'll be smart enough to read between the lines, and investor relations would still know to put an optimistic spin on information and it'll ensure that HR is aware that it is there to protect the company first and employees second.
I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.
Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?'"
AI pipe dreams and fantasy, not a future we are likely to see, nor one I want.
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| Quote ="IR80"AI pipe dreams and fantasy, not a future we are likely to see, nor one I want.'"
What sort of future do you envision and want?
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"What sort of future do you envision and want?'"
One where survival of the fittest prevails, the best person for a job doing the job, pretty much as things are now.
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| Quote ="IR80"One where survival of the fittest prevails, the best person for a job doing the job, pretty much as things are now.'"
Somewhere between Running Man and Rococop?
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"Somewhere between Running Man and Rococop?'"
Nope, but we don't live in a society anything like that.
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| Quote ="IR80"Nope, but we don't live in a society anything like that.'"
It's only a matter of time...
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| Quote ="IR80"One where survival of the fittest prevails, the best person for a job doing the job, pretty much as things are now.'"
I never had you down as such a Panglossian optimist.
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"I never had you down as such a Panglossian optimist.'"
I am far from Naive, and if I thought for one second you had ever read any Voltaire I would be amazed.
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| Quote ="IR80"I am far from Naive, and if I thought for one second you had ever read any Voltaire I would be amazed.'"
I’ve read Candide. Slim volume, and a lightness of tone easy for my tiny mind to process.
You read it?
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"I’ve read Candide. Slim volume, and a lightness of tone easy for my tiny mind to process.
You read it?'"
Yes, a while ago now. I also tried Chaucer at roughly the same time, very difficult to read. I don't read anywhere near as much as I used to, but I don't travel as much nowadays.
I don't share your view that AI is the future, ultimately AI (in its current form) is simply an extension of the individual(s) that program it.
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| Quote ="IR80"Yes, a while ago now. I also tried Chaucer at roughly the same time, very difficult to read. I don't read anywhere near as much as I used to, but I don't travel as much nowadays.
I don't share your view that AI is the future, ultimately AI (in its current form) is simply an extension of the individual(s) that program it.'"
We’re a way off sentient AI, I agree.
But machine learning means we’re beyond stuff just being programmed by people.
People often think first about the impact of driverless vehicles, and the impact that’ll have on people who drive for a living, for example. But a fair proportion of share trading is done by algorithms now. Their use as virtual assistants is widespread and they decide what videos YouTube recommends for you. One day in the not too distant they might be prescribing you medicines or providing adaptive, interactive tuition. They’re moving from processing data to interpreting and summarising it, which is the main part of my work.
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"We’re a way off sentient AI, I agree.
But machine learning means we’re beyond stuff just being programmed by people.
People often think first about the impact of driverless vehicles, and the impact that’ll have on people who drive for a living, for example. But a fair proportion of share trading is done by algorithms now. Their use as virtual assistants is widespread and they decide what videos YouTube recommends for you. One day in the not too distant they might be prescribing you medicines or providing adaptive, interactive tuition. They’re moving from processing data to interpreting and summarising it, which is the main part of my work.'"
But they must be interpreting/summarising based on something programmed?
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| Quote ="IR80"But they must be interpreting/summarising based on something programmed?'"
So, my very, very basic lay person understanding is that machine learning doesn’t require programming, but instead a training set.
So when we were asked to prove we were not a bot when accessing a website, by selecting all the squares containing a road sign, we were helping to create a training set for a self-driving car. Presumably there are now algorithms that can recognise road signs, thanks to our efforts, so that security feature for weeding out bots has become redundant.
The training sets are used to test automatically generated, pretty much random algorithms. Millions of them. And most of them are rubbish. But if you pick the best 1%... well, they’ll still be rubbish. But if you use them as the basis to generate millions more and pick the best 1% of them, survival of the fittest style, and so on, and so on... you get there.
So I guess the human input is in creating the environment and providing the nutrients (the training set), but the algorithm evolves more than being programmed. For the latest game machine learning for Chess and Go, I think the machine created its own training set. Rather than being fed loads of games from top human players, and learning to mimic them super efficiently, it started from scratch playing against itself.
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The evolution of predictive text is an example of how machine learning has developed under our own eyes, without us really noticing how powerful, and accurate, it has become.
When it first started, it could pretty much complete a word, but it had to almost see a majority of the letters typed to offer up what it thought you were typing. It was often wrong, but got better as the technology improved.
It then developed into predicting what the next word would be, based on how a simple sentence is structured. Then a more complex sentence based on the previous words used in the sentence.
Then it became more personalised to the user, by building a dictionary of commonly typed words to suggest.
Then there was the feature that learnt from the user's writing style, by analysing texts and emails.
I've had the same Android phone for the last six years. It's scanned multiple emails and texts, and has built up a dictionary so personal, it knows pretty much every word I use. All my nuances, slang, swear words, brand names, beer styles, rugby teams, places. When I start a text to certain people, it pretty much knows the tone of the text by multiple words in advance, and can almost complete the sentences for me.
I haven't programmed it in the traditional sense of programming. It's just learnt from repetition over a period of time.
This is an interesting read regarding the future of predictive text.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019 ... new-yorker
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The evolution of predictive text is an example of how machine learning has developed under our own eyes, without us really noticing how powerful, and accurate, it has become.
When it first started, it could pretty much complete a word, but it had to almost see a majority of the letters typed to offer up what it thought you were typing. It was often wrong, but got better as the technology improved.
It then developed into predicting what the next word would be, based on how a simple sentence is structured. Then a more complex sentence based on the previous words used in the sentence.
Then it became more personalised to the user, by building a dictionary of commonly typed words to suggest.
Then there was the feature that learnt from the user's writing style, by analysing texts and emails.
I've had the same Android phone for the last six years. It's scanned multiple emails and texts, and has built up a dictionary so personal, it knows pretty much every word I use. All my nuances, slang, swear words, brand names, beer styles, rugby teams, places. When I start a text to certain people, it pretty much knows the tone of the text by multiple words in advance, and can almost complete the sentences for me.
I haven't programmed it in the traditional sense of programming. It's just learnt from repetition over a period of time.
This is an interesting read regarding the future of predictive text.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2019 ... new-yorker
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Quote ="Mild Rover"I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.
Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?'"
I read those books and it struck me that if the development of AI was in the hands of benevolent actors, that is more than likely what they would aim for; it was refreshing to explore a utopian future, rather than the dystopia that is often the default of sci-fi writers. Cory Doctorow has also written some interesting stuff around post-scarcity anarchy, and the future of society and how it interacts with technology.
To the question - I would happily live as a Culture citizen:
"The Culture's economy is maintained automatically by its non-sentient machines, with high-level work entrusted to the Minds' subroutines, which allows its humanoid and drone citizens to indulge their passions, romances, hobbies, or other activities, without servitude. Biologically, the Culture's citizens have been genetically enhanced to live for centuries, and have modified mental control over their physiology, including the ability to introduce a variety of psychoactive drugs into their systems, change biological sex, or switch off pain at will. Culture technology is able to transform individuals into vastly different body forms, although the Culture standard form remains fairly close to human."
Works for me.
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Quote ="Mild Rover"I'm thinking of something like the Minds in the Culture series of novels.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture
While made-up, they are interesting and entertaining.
Does a post-scarcity future, managed by hyperintelligent AIs, appeal hypothetically? Or would the lack of economic competition and status make it feel sterile, d'you reckon?'"
I read those books and it struck me that if the development of AI was in the hands of benevolent actors, that is more than likely what they would aim for; it was refreshing to explore a utopian future, rather than the dystopia that is often the default of sci-fi writers. Cory Doctorow has also written some interesting stuff around post-scarcity anarchy, and the future of society and how it interacts with technology.
To the question - I would happily live as a Culture citizen:
"The Culture's economy is maintained automatically by its non-sentient machines, with high-level work entrusted to the Minds' subroutines, which allows its humanoid and drone citizens to indulge their passions, romances, hobbies, or other activities, without servitude. Biologically, the Culture's citizens have been genetically enhanced to live for centuries, and have modified mental control over their physiology, including the ability to introduce a variety of psychoactive drugs into their systems, change biological sex, or switch off pain at will. Culture technology is able to transform individuals into vastly different body forms, although the Culture standard form remains fairly close to human."
Works for me.
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| Quote ="bren2k"I read those books and it struck me that if the development of AI was in the hands of benevolent actors, that is more than likely what they would aim for; it was refreshing to explore a utopian future, rather than the dystopia that is often the default of sci-fi writers. Cory Doctorow has also written some interesting stuff around post-scarcity anarchy, and the future of society and how it interacts with technology.
To the question - I would happily live as a Culture citizen:
"The Culture's economy is maintained automatically by its non-sentient machines, with high-level work entrusted to the Minds' subroutines, which allows its humanoid and drone citizens to indulge their passions, romances, hobbies, or other activities, without servitude. Biologically, the Culture's citizens have been genetically enhanced to live for centuries, and have modified mental control over their physiology, including the ability to introduce a variety of psychoactive drugs into their systems, change biological sex, or switch off pain at will. Culture technology is able to transform individuals into vastly different body forms, although the Culture standard form remains fairly close to human."
Works for me.'"
Fantasy works for some, we all have views and opinions, and we are better for it. Personally I do not think AI is a positive thing... taken to it's extreme, when robots can build robots where does the human race fit in. Maybe our extinction will be at the hands of drones and droids. We have middle ages thinking ruling Parliament (MP's can vote, but the "Lords" can vote them down), Governments make decisions, but the unelected "Supreme" court dig up legislation older than Ken Clarke.
As an example, Windows 7 is no longer supported, what is to say AI x.y will not become defunct.
Utopia is a VERY dangerous dream, and I defy anyone to build AI that feels true love, hate, remorse, compassion, hunger, the need to procreate.
Society has spent thousands of years believing in a book, by some blokes, about a virgin, who got pregnant via an omnipresent god, who sent his son to slaughter. A man who built a boat that saved 2 of everything (no mention of sea creatures not needing saving), a man who recieved some tablets on the mountain... a bloke who seperated a sea, another bloke who defeated a bloke much bigger....
humanity is built on myth and legend, AI is the next one.
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| Quote ="IR80"Utopia is a VERY dangerous dream, and I defy anyone to build AI that feels true love, hate, remorse, compassion, hunger, the need to procreate.'"
I would have thought that the very human qualities you've described are exactly what you *wouldn't* want an AI to feel - as they're what produce irrational, flawed and illogical decisions and subsequently, actions; all the things that a benevolent oversight model should seek to eliminate - so that us lesser, biological entities, with all our flaws and idiosyncrasies, could enact them freely, without causing harm to society.
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| Quote ="bren2k"I read those books and it struck me that if the development of AI was in the hands of benevolent actors, that is more than likely what they would aim for; it was refreshing to explore a utopian future, rather than the dystopia that is often the default of sci-fi writers. Cory Doctorow has also written some interesting stuff around post-scarcity anarchy, and the future of society and how it interacts with technology.
To the question - I would happily live as a Culture citizen:
"The Culture's economy is maintained automatically by its non-sentient machines, with high-level work entrusted to the Minds' subroutines, which allows its humanoid and drone citizens to indulge their passions, romances, hobbies, or other activities, without servitude. Biologically, the Culture's citizens have been genetically enhanced to live for centuries, and have modified mental control over their physiology, including the ability to introduce a variety of psychoactive drugs into their systems, change biological sex, or switch off pain at will. Culture technology is able to transform individuals into vastly different body forms, although the Culture standard form remains fairly close to human."
Works for me.'"
Yeah, sounds alright dunnit? I agree about the utopian take. There’s a theory that entertainment tones tends to go in the opposite direction to societies’ current feeling. So real-world hard times drive up production of happy, feelgood stories and good times see more gritty realism on the page/screen. I’m a bit dubious about the theory, but all the ecological breakdown and demagoguery I need, I can get from the news.
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| Quote ="IR80"
Utopia is a VERY dangerous dream, and I defy anyone to build AI that feels true love, hate, remorse, compassion, hunger, the need to procreate.
'"
Over what sort of time frame? Like, ever? Do you think it is impossible or infeasible even in the long-term?
Do you think intelligence sentience require emotion and desire?
Do you believe in the soul (or similar, if you prefer a different word)?
I agree there are dangers in dreams of any particular Utopia, in that it could inspire people to ruthlessness that they believe is justified by their goal. But would you agree that it is desirable (if almost inherently unachievable) goal?
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"Over what sort of time frame? Like, ever? Do you think it is impossible or infeasible even in the long-term?
Do you think intelligence sentience require emotion and desire?
Do you believe in the soul (or similar, if you prefer a different word)?
I agree there are dangers in dreams of any particular Utopia, in that it could inspire people to ruthlessness that they believe is justified by their goal. But would you agree that it is desirable (if almost inherently unachievable) goal?'"
Anything is possible - the beauty of the human is the way we all react differently to exactly the same input. Are we going have AI that react in 7 billion different ways to one single input?
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Anything is possible - the beauty of the human is the way we all react differently to exactly the same input. Are we going have AI that react in 7 billion different ways to one single input?'"
I think it is plausible, yes, given the complexity required. Even non-sentient, narrow function bots respond differently to the same input. I think key to it is that they wouldn’t be designed in a traditional sense. In that sense, I agree with IR80 that nobody is going to ‘build’ an AI based on blueprints or similar.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Anything is possible - the beauty of the human is the way we all react differently to exactly the same input. Are we going have AI that react in 7 billion different ways to one single input?'"
Over time, with AI taking full effect, would it's influence take out some of the "bumps" in how we all behave, with human beings becoming more and more like the robot's that are having more and more influence on our lives.
It's the nuance within our thoughts and reactions that would be hardest to detect by "machine" and as you say, we could all be thinking "exactly" the same but, our reactions would usually be different.
Taking bereavement as an example, we may all be equally upset at the loss of someone but, one person would have uncontrollable grief, wheras the next person may still be able to carry on.
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"Yeah, sounds alright dunnit? I agree about the utopian take. There’s a theory that entertainment tones tends to go in the opposite direction to societies’ current feeling. So real-world hard times drive up production of happy, feelgood stories and good times see more gritty realism on the page/screen. I’m a bit dubious about the theory, but all the ecological breakdown and demagoguery I need, I can get from the news.'"
Indeed - I'm a huge fan of Bladerunner; these days however, it just feels like a documentary.
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