I must have imagined the years of accession talks that began in 2005.

Two days after "Brexit Day" you appear mighty defensive.
How are you expecting our negotiations to play out.

The utter nonsense of "an easy" trade deal already looks like dreaming but, there is no going back now and we have made an enemy (in trade terms) or our closest and largest trading partner.
For me, "Brexit" was all about trade and the damage that we were welcoming upon ourselves.
Johnson, Rees Mogg and Farage were all full of "the Germans will still need to sell their cars" and it's utter nonsense.
The EU could not and will not give a FTA.
Without this, we are left looking for new customers/suppliers elsewhere in the world, whist very likely taking a "hit" on inflation.

Our economy is forecast by the Bank of England to grow by a massive 1% next year and we are, just as I have suggested for the last 3 years volunteering a new recession.

Happy Brexit

It’s not so much that I want the destruction of sovereign nation states, but I think that over (probably a very long) time they’ll wither, as global problems demand global responses, or simply overwhelm us. Where I’m unconvinced by your argument, in that it’ll definitely or even likely happen in the way you suggest, is the idea that there is a single EU power base with a single ambition.

As Lo Kuan-Chung wrote, Empires wax and wane, states cleave asunder and coalesce. Brexit isn’t the end of the world - it is only the EU. But equally, you can’t convince that staying in was pants poo-ingly scary - it is only the EU.

Nope you attempted to put your own right wing fascist nationalistic spin crap on the E.U. origins .
The guy wpSpelloni was a vehement anti-fascist, imprisoned by the fascist friend of Adolf Hitler, Mussolini.
He was a visionary of his time who correctly foresaw the solution to stop wars in Europe was to curtail fascist nationalistic state dictators emerging again.
In that respect to date he got it right.

Now as regards the failed lefty you refer to, it can’t be me as I ran my own business till aged 55, could have retired before but liked my professional career so much kept at it.
I am not drawing state pension yet, neither am I drawing any of my personal or executive pensions, just living on my “allowances”.

I spend a smidgeon of my time laughing at Adolf Hitler wannabee’s As you.

Now if you like a challenge, tell us how much of your little house in Leigh you own

The majority of leave voters who I've asked why they wanted to leave the E.U. was "there are too many foreigners coming over here & taking our jobs & homes"



Why, a large number of people who voted to leave are Xenophobes.



But I'm not calling anyone a Nazi, nor have I insulted you in any way, it's just a shame you couldn't offer me the same geniality.

They’re all still so angry.

I wonder who the blame will fall on next.

Point 1 is anecdotal claptrap
Point 2, how do you know this? Or are you just guessing
Point 3, I didn't say YOU called anyone a NAZI and your initial post inferred that anyone who voted brexit is a xenophobe. So, yeah, you did insult me.

Regards point 1 I would say he is correct.
I have heard it from within my own family and circle of acquaintances.

“ Farage is right, we are overrun with foreigners and Muslims taking our jobs, homes, benefits, doctors,dentists, hospital appointments” , they say.

When you ask them about Polish WW2 pilots and Ghurkas etc they just look at you and say ah but that’s just probably anecdotalicon_biggrin.gif

For those who don’t buy into the whole nationalist / jingoism. Go see Jo Jo Rabbit. It may well be fiction but based on truth that whatever indoctrination of the right goes on there are still free thinking progressives in the world.

You’ve only got to look at America where a republican candidate lost the popular vote but was installed as president by a corrupt democracy.

That same president has now put himself effectively above the law, and become an “elected “ dictator.
He can do what he wants lawful or otherwise , unchallenged.



What’s next on his agenda?

You can see where Cummins is coming from

Spellini was anti-facist in the same way Josef Stalin was anti-fascist, given he was communist, and at times a Leninist and Stalinist.

I don't disagree with his reasoning regarding prevention of future conflict, but I do disagree vehemently with his solution.

And if you bother to read his writings you see the majority of his motivations were actually born of his communist/socialist roots: abolition of private property, socialisation of monopolies, redistribution of wealth, etc. That's right, the primal roots of the EU lie in communism, and if you dig into most EU acts and treaties over time promoting ever closer union you will find Spellini in the background, driving them on.

Of course, you blindly consider this 'spin'. It isn't.




You really are the gift that keeps giving - and absolutely typical of the intolerant left: faced with facts and losing an argument you resort to insults. Keep 'em up.

To paraphrase someone I'm sure you admire greatly, [i"I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single argument left."[/i




I don't live in Leigh. Too many Romanians.



All of it. Quite a big house. Overlooks farmland, tha knows.

If you run a dairy what will happen to those that I presume supply you with your raw product once the EU grants stop because no way will they get anything from this government. I suppose it will be the survival of the fittest with those that cannot stand alone will cease trading.

I’ve just read Spinelli’s biography on Wikipedia. Kinda inspirational. His vision was rather more compelling than the reality of the EU - although that is the thing with vision, innit?

I accept that there’s a broad diversity of opinion, but one thing I think we can all agree on - he was no Boris Johnson.

And you think immigration has been at acceptable, manageable levels for say, the last 20 years? You think the views of the normal person on the street all come from Nigel Farage?

You also think, I presume, that the average Brit should shut up and accept the pace and volume of change thrust upon them by 'progressives', who think they know best?

Are you like that smug piece of work Emily Thornberry, who views working class Britain as below her, and mocks it in her tweets?

You probably think that the suggestion of sensible, managed immigration is racist and xenophobic and nazist and fascist and probably satanic. To most people it's common sense.

The majority of immigration came from outside the EU which we have always been able to control.
What about those members of the Conservative party who believe food banks are a personal preference or that living on the streets is a lifestyle choice. I note you do not reference them but that would not fit your blinkered view of the U.K. in 2020.

Yep we know that. What's your point? Extricating ourselves from the EU is to do with a lot more than immigration. Do keep up. It all needs to be controlled or are you of the idiotic view free movement is a wonderful thing?


What about them? That has zero relevance to the discussion over the last few pages. Why on earth would I reference them in a discussion over the formation and ambitions of the EU?

Blinkered view

That coming from a loony lefty snowflake is probably a compliment.

I will not bother debating with Cronus as it is a waste of time. He is just the typical common or garden racist . An educated one but just as dangerous as the skinhead hooligans in the EDL.

What is dangerous are the lies , half truths and deliberate misinterpretation he peddles as a way of forwarding that agenda.

Many of them are very simple and quite easy to accept unless you know the facts and can pick them apart.

The above portion of his post is a really good example

The topic of discussion was Brexit and Cronus throws in the following points

So a dislike of a massive and rapid influx of people, Britain has been pullling in immigrants since 1945 to rebuild the country, staff the NHS, work the worst shifts that more upwardly mobile groups did not want to do build houses or pick fruit. West Indians to drive buses , Indian Drs, Pakistani mill workers, Irish nurses, polish builders, Rumanian fruit pickers.


The rapid influx of immigrants Cronus talks about was the 1.5 m polish workers that came into Britain under Tony Blair.

That was not forced on us by the EU but was a deliberate DECISON by a British PM. It did not have to happen it was not forced on Britain by the EU, it was a 100% British led and parliament decided policy.

The simple truth is that when Poland joined the EU every country had the opportunity of dying no immigrants for seven years. Every country in Europe said NO except Britain. So when Poland joined the EU for the first seven years there was nowhere for them to go Except Britain. if Britain had waited The seven years like the rest of Europe then when the Poles were allowed to move they would have shared themselves throughout Europe . No Massive influx just a general movement of labour to where it would have been needed.



leading to a squeeze on lower-paid jobs, Polish immigrants who came here were the most educated groups who went to any European country. Most were not in poor paid jobs unless that is what they were forced into due to having to work beefier they made their way up into jobs they were skillled for especially in IT, electronics etc.

This squeeze on lower paid jobs is a myth. When immigrants stopped coming they were not replaced by an army of unemployed Britons filling the gap. That is why hundreds of tonnes of fruit was left to rot last year as there was no one left to pick it. Those unskilled Rumanians actually did the jobs British people did not want to do and will not do in the future.


a rapid disruption of communities Ritalin has been suffering a massive disruption in communities since the miners strike. When Pontfract , Cas, Blyth, Easington, Bilsthorpe , teeside, Sunderland etc suffered massive disruption of communities it was based on pits, shipyards, steel mills closing down. not immigrants.

Where is Cronus calling for the demise of the Tory party for destroying communities.

When people in Barnsley, Sedgefield Aycliffe, Doncaster , Burnley , complain about the demise of their town centres And the closing of shops that is caused by amazon and online shopping and ludicrous rents for shops owned by speculators and landlords. None of this is caused by immigrants. Where is Cronus calling for the destruction of amazon Or enforcing taxes against companies who fiddle the tax system by registering abroad and reducing landlords powers.


the NHS is struggling dealing with old people bed blocking because there are no resources to keep them in their homes and support them because of massive cuts to the local authorities . Allied to massive cuts in the Health service, That is not caused by immigrants. Most of whom are younger fit and healthy. Where is Cronus calling for the demise of the Tory party and their austerity measures we have had for 10 years.


and other issues such as an increase in crime, . We have an increase in crime for many reasons, drugs, and the breakdown in communities, lack of activities for younger people, the demise of preventative services and underfunding of probation and support for rehabilitation, reductions in police services and the ending of community policing. None of this is caused by European immigrants. They are more likely to be victims of crime than perpetrators. No doubt the usual anecdotes about Rumanian pickpockets will be thrown in but that is a small %. Even if you look at knife crime in London that is mainly British born children ( although many are the children of immigrants going back generations) nothing to do wit the EU or uncontrolled immigrants. They will have come here when Britain had controls. Many reasons why this has happened in London but that is a separate matter.

I wont shy away from the issue of the Asian organised abuse groups either. But anyone with half a brain knows that is nothing to do with the EU and immigration. What Cronus does quite deliberately is link all immigrants with Crime to support his racist xenophobic right wing agenda.



differences in culture true there are differences in culture with EU immigrants. Mainly catholic coming into a god fearing Protestant country where we still have religious wars and every time the monarch changes we burn heretics. They like different sports . Europeans coming in telling us how to. Play football by keeping possession and passing, what is wrong with hoofing it up the pitch and then bundling the ball and keeper into the goal. The talk a different language and when they learn to talk English they have really strong accents and you have to listen carefully to what they say. Not like our easy to understand Geordie brummie and cockney accents. They eat funny food what’s wrong with porridge and bacon and eggs for breakfast . Why do they have to have bloody croissants and cheese salami and pickles on rye bread



etc is not xenophobia.
. Actually yes it is how far along the xenophobic / racist line I don’t know but you are there on it




If you have got to the end of this post you will have realised the difference in the two approaches.
Cronus arguements are simple Mainly aimed at those who want simple solutions to complex problems. In Cronus’ world it comes down to. EU bad , immigrants bad.

When challenging that approach it requires knowledge, explanation and time . Much hardef to get across and by the time it is seen to be true it will probably be too late.

You mean you can't.



I'd love you to find something actually racist in anything I've ever posted. You can't. I haven't. You resort to name calling instead and that's a sign of failure.



Those of us with a pragmatic real-world view have had years of muppets wailing 'racist' at any criticism of levels of mass immigration and freedom of movement. In the early 2000s you could barely even whisper the word in public without derision and abuse. And yet you still wonder why the left keeps being rejected.

Indeed, that aggressive and intolerant attitude is part of the reason for the Brexit vote and subsequent Tory wins. Each time some clown on here calls me racist without foundation my resolve is hardened and I can happily dismiss the poster as exactly that...a clown.



Which is exactly why some posters get a lot more respect from me than others, regardless of their views.

Yes they have zero relevance to the discussion but neither did your reference to Emily Thornberry. I could of referenced more who have made statements deriding the unemployed or working class.
I do believe immigration is good for us as a country because I would say good luck finding UK citizens to pick food products for example. Johnson’s plan would not help with this, I suppose like the new conservative MP we could resort to the good old chain gangs.

Cronus wrote.


Stick a wink behind it and it is alright. Next up DG does not appreciate post irony

I thought you weren't debating?



You don't get to extract a clearly sarcastic comment (yes, that's the whole point of the emoji, btw) from the context of the conversation and claim 'wacist'. So, no, that doesn't prove anything. Keep searching.

Mind you, in your perpetually offended little snowflake world you probably genuinely believe that was a serious racist attack on Romanians. The left will cling to anything.





[size=80** waits for DG to claim I'm 'rhotacist' **[/size

You know as well as I do that, after 10 years of austerity and with local services creaking under the strain of 10 years of cut backs, immigrants became a very easy target and that this was used by Farage & Co to stoke a climate which made people want significant change.

We agree that there had to be a level of control and that the UK was "stiffed" by he EU when they asked for help.

However, where we are poles apart is in our prediction for the UK's future outside of such a huge trading bloc

What stinks the house out is that the Tories are now prepared, at least in word, to invest in all of those cities which they had butchered and had the same or any sensible investment been forthcoming, as opposed to the austerity cuts, there simply wouldn't have been the same outcry about immigration. Some would say that we have all been played and some wouldn't know, due to Brexit blindness.

Wow you have been busy on here today, what’s up, non of that extended schooltype work for you today?, or is it your zero hours contract



Plenty of the right wing racist fascist briebart type stuff to get through though.

And as for all that waffle there is there a factual point in There? You really do come across as an old angry white fascist shouting your propaganda at clouds.



Hillarious

And you come across as a typical left wing tambourine shaker who has probably been old enough to vote just once.

But hey, you are allowed your say, as much as we are allowed to roll our eyes and thank the stars you and your ilk have been consigned to the shadows.