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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"How do economies like Germany many to have such a strong manufacturing base?'"
I think that they have valued some of their traditional industries and their government has a strategic plan on how to rune their ecconomy.
We on the other hand have smashed our traditional industries and sold off anything and everything to the highest bidder, leaving everything to "the markets".
Privatising many of our primary assets, for a short term windfall, was not the best idea. Not only has this meant allowing all of the profits to go overseas and left the public vulnerable to swingeing increases in prices, which wouldn't have been tolerated under public ownership, we are all now at the mercy of others for our key utilities. |
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| Quote ="silver2"Firstly, they didnt have to undergo the vandalism of Thatcher, secondly Enginners are highly respected and finally, apprenticeship training is valued as much as a university based education.'"
I agree with your second point unfortunately we are a service-based economy where academic knowledge is important in progressing these businesses. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"we are a service-based economy'"
You've just answered your own question... "How do economies like Germany many to have such a strong manufacturing base?"
Instead of making physical things and doing proper graft, the majority of us sit at computers, send emails, and answer phones for a living. |
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Quote ="Sal Paradise"How do economies like Germany many to have such a strong manufacturing base?'"
You would have thought that the red tape imposed on them by Brussels bureaucrats would have strangled their industries 
What's also interesting is that they face higher tax rates in Germany too:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... stralia-us
"Basic rates of tax are around the same as in Britain (ranging from 19% to a top rate of 45%), but workers have to pay an extra 10% for state pensions, 8% for health, 1.5% for unemployment cover and 1% for care insurance. That all adds up to a lot more than Britain’s 12% national insurance but, like France, Germany’s public services and welfare payouts are regarded as far superior."
"The big shock for British taxpayers is the country’s church tax, which is 8% or 9% of income tax paid, depending on which part of Germany you live in. Under German law, anyone who has been baptised is automatically a member of the church and obliged to pay the tax, irrespective of their beliefs or whether they attend church services.
Individuals can formally renounce their church membership and stop paying the tax, but they may risk losing access to some of the country’s best schools and childcare facilities."
Surely what you would expect is that with those tax rates the wealth creators would simply take their wealth elsewhere to somewhere like the UK where the state and church are not confiscating it to pay for "superior welfare hand outs". |
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Quote ="Sal Paradise"How do economies like Germany many to have such a strong manufacturing base?'"
You would have thought that the red tape imposed on them by Brussels bureaucrats would have strangled their industries
What's also interesting is that they face higher tax rates in Germany too:
https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/ ... stralia-us
"Basic rates of tax are around the same as in Britain (ranging from 19% to a top rate of 45%), but workers have to pay an extra 10% for state pensions, 8% for health, 1.5% for unemployment cover and 1% for care insurance. That all adds up to a lot more than Britain’s 12% national insurance but, like France, Germany’s public services and welfare payouts are regarded as far superior."
"The big shock for British taxpayers is the country’s church tax, which is 8% or 9% of income tax paid, depending on which part of Germany you live in. Under German law, anyone who has been baptised is automatically a member of the church and obliged to pay the tax, irrespective of their beliefs or whether they attend church services.
Individuals can formally renounce their church membership and stop paying the tax, but they may risk losing access to some of the country’s best schools and childcare facilities."
Surely what you would expect is that with those tax rates the wealth creators would simply take their wealth elsewhere to somewhere like the UK where the state and church are not confiscating it to pay for "superior welfare hand outs". | |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"You've just answered your own question... "How do economies like Germany many to have such a strong manufacturing base?"
Instead of making physical things and doing proper graft, the majority of us sit at computers, send emails, and answer phones for a living.'"
The question was we cannot compete with low cost manufacturing - my question was how can Germany manage it given the EU is keen to ensure we don't become a low cost economy and undercut the rest of the EU? |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"The question was we cannot compete with low cost manufacturing - my question was how can Germany manage it given the EU is keen to ensure we don't become a low cost economy and undercut the rest of the EU?'"
Simple. Plenty of people are prepared to pay for quality. Germany don't need to compete with economies churning out cheap crap, because they're not making cheap crap. There is a huge amount of people who don't subscribe to the cheapest is best, race to the bottom. |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"Simple. Plenty of people are prepared to pay for quality. Germany don't need to compete with economies churning out cheap crap, because they're not making cheap crap. There is a huge amount of people who don't subscribe to the cheapest is best, race to the bottom.'"
Agreed - but we produce high quality niche products - my question was why can't we in the UK replicate what is happening in Germany in respect of manufacturing. This was countered by saying it has all gone to China? My point was that we never had the quality of management to drive the sector forward. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Agreed - but we produce high quality niche products - my question was why can't we in the UK replicate what is happening in Germany in respect of manufacturing. This was countered by saying it has all gone to China? My point was that we never had the quality of management to drive the sector forward.'"
Too many successive governments who know the cost of everything and the value of nothing. Always selling the promise of cheaper stuff to the masses.
When 'true patriot' Jacob Rees-Mogg was selling his vision of a 'cheap shoes' Brexit, where do you think these shoes were going to come from? The traditional makers in Northampton, or the sweat shops in Bangladesh? |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Agreed - but we produce high quality niche products - my question was why can't we in the UK replicate what is happening in Germany in respect of manufacturing. This was countered by saying it has all gone to China? My point was that we never had the quality of management to drive the sector forward.'"
We didn't get millions of pounds of inward investment after starting two world wars. |
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| Quote ="IR80"We didn't get millions of pounds of inward investment after starting two world wars.'"
Do you mean the Marshall plan? The UK got more than twice as much money in loans and grants as West Germany.
I suspect/speculate that West Germany and Japan benefitted more from (enforced) minimal military spending. |
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"Do you mean the Marshall plan? The UK got more than twice as much money in loans and grants as West Germany.
I suspect/speculate that West Germany and Japan benefitted more from (enforced) minimal military spending.'"
No, it was a third more, not double. |
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loads of conflicting views, https://fullfact.org/europe/kawczynski-marshall-plan/, anyway, way off topic. But it does begbthe question, what was it spent on, was more infrastructure in GB damaged than in West Germany, did the restriction in allowance of spending on military mean West Germany spent it "better", did Great Britain "squander" large amounts on joining the NATO club and aligning itself with the USA, a very interesting set of questions and probably worth a thread of its own.
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loads of conflicting views, https://fullfact.org/europe/kawczynski-marshall-plan/, anyway, way off topic. But it does begbthe question, what was it spent on, was more infrastructure in GB damaged than in West Germany, did the restriction in allowance of spending on military mean West Germany spent it "better", did Great Britain "squander" large amounts on joining the NATO club and aligning itself with the USA, a very interesting set of questions and probably worth a thread of its own.
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| Quote ="IR80"But it does begbthe question, what was it spent on, was more infrastructure in GB damaged than in West Germany, did the restriction in allowance of spending on military mean West Germany spent it "better", did Great Britain "squander" large amounts on joining the NATO club and aligning itself with the USA, a very interesting set of questions and probably worth a thread of its own.'"
Seeing how Britain operates when there are large pots of cash and contracts floating around, I'd imagine there are generations of families who are still living the high life today from some of that money. |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"Seeing how Britain operates when there are large pots of cash and contracts floating around, I'd imagine there are generations of families who are still living the high life today from some of that money.'"
I completely agree with that - I know of one company that has become huge on the back of buying MOD land after the war very cheap and developing it |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"Seeing how Britain operates when there are large pots of cash and contracts floating around, I'd imagine there are generations of families who are still living the high life today from some of that money.'"
you seem to hate our country, why don't you go live somewhere else? |
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Quote ="IR80"loads of conflicting views, https://fullfact.org/europe/kawczynski-marshall-plan/, anyway, way off topic. But it does begbthe question, what was it spent on, was more infrastructure in GB damaged than in West Germany, did the restriction in allowance of spending on military mean West Germany spent it "better", did Great Britain "squander" large amounts on joining the NATO club and aligning itself with the USA, a very interesting set of questions and probably worth a thread of its own.'"
I seem to remember reading that the UK aerospace industry was heavily subsidised by the US in the 1950s. As a result, we were able to develop the V bomber fleet, the Comet and a host of other cutting edge designs. |
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Quote ="IR80"loads of conflicting views, https://fullfact.org/europe/kawczynski-marshall-plan/, anyway, way off topic. But it does begbthe question, what was it spent on, was more infrastructure in GB damaged than in West Germany, did the restriction in allowance of spending on military mean West Germany spent it "better", did Great Britain "squander" large amounts on joining the NATO club and aligning itself with the USA, a very interesting set of questions and probably worth a thread of its own.'"
I seem to remember reading that the UK aerospace industry was heavily subsidised by the US in the 1950s. As a result, we were able to develop the V bomber fleet, the Comet and a host of other cutting edge designs. | |
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| Quote ="IR80"you seem to hate our country, why don't you go live somewhere else?'"
Oh, here he is, Gordon Gekko and his 'greed is good' mantra.
I just like to question things as opposed to just accepting the crap I'm fed. Smart motorways is another one. Someone will have been making a fortune out of those, and now they're on hold due to safety issues! Any regular motorway user could have told you when they first started installing them that they were an accident waiting to happen. You can't implement constantly changing speed limits and eradicate the hard shoulder and not expect major issues. Surely even someone so capitalistically blinkered as you could have seen that? |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"Oh, here he is, Gordon Gekko and his 'greed is good' mantra.
I just like to question things as opposed to just accepting the crap I'm fed. Smart motorways is another one. Someone will have been making a fortune out of those, and now they're on hold due to safety issues! Any regular motorway user could have told you when they first started installing them that they were an accident waiting to happen. You can't implement constantly changing speed limits and eradicate the hard shoulder and not expect major issues. Surely even someone so capitalistically blinkered as you could have seen that?'"
Its a trade off - hundreds of motorists queuing or use of the hard shoulder and the minimal risk of an accident - given how many vehicles use motorways how many accidents have there been with stranded vehicles - infinitesimal. |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Its a trade off - hundreds of motorists queuing or use of the hard shoulder and the minimal risk of an accident - given how many vehicles use motorways how many accidents have there been with stranded vehicles - infinitesimal.'"
[iFrom a societal perspective the benefits . . . are probably worth a dead kid once a year.[/i |
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| Quote ="IR80"you seem to hate our country, why don't you go live somewhere else?'"
Yeah - bugger off to one of those European countries you love so much!
Oh wait... |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Its a trade off - hundreds of motorists queuing or use of the hard shoulder and the minimal risk of an accident - given how many vehicles use motorways how many accidents have there been with stranded vehicles - infinitesimal.'"
And yet, the smart motorways were supposed to be modelled on part of the M42, where the refuge areas were 600 yards apart and not, as we have in some cases, every 1 1/2 to 2 miles.
Corners have been cut, that study not fully reviewed and the price is people being killed way to regularly.
Also and I dont know if any studies have been carried out yet, there appear to be many more long delays when lanes, quite rightly, are taken out.
These actually seem to make the hold ups both more frequent and longer than they were previously.
The solution, as it always was, is to reduce the amount of traffic on the roads and not to keep on encouraging more and more motorists to drive.
Improving our rail services would be a start and making kids walk to school. 
Less traffic, healthier kids, cleaner air etc, etc |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"And yet, the smart motorways were supposed to be modelled on part of the M42, where the refuge areas were 600 yards apart and not, as we have in some cases, every 1 1/2 to 2 miles.
Corners have been cut, that study not fully reviewed and the price is people being killed way to regularly.
Also and I dont know if any studies have been carried out yet, there appear to be many more long delays when lanes, quite rightly, are taken out.
These actually seem to make the hold ups both more frequent and longer than they were previously.
The solution, as it always was, is to reduce the amount of traffic on the roads and not to keep on encouraging more and more motorists to drive.
Improving our rail services would be a start and making kids walk to school.
Less traffic, healthier kids, cleaner air etc, etc'"
We have more cars on the road so we will get longer delays - especially when you have a police force who don't care how long they inconvenience motorists as long as they gather whatever evidence they think they need. These hold ups would be 25% longer if they didn't use the hard shoulder. Perhaps if their focus was on keeping the traffic flowing then that would go a long way to reducing delays.
Yes it would be great if all kids walked to school but if the school is 4/5 miles away is that practical. Improving the rail service would require billions of investment and the destruction of some brown/green field sites - the tracks have to run somewhere and stations need building. Leeds desperately needs a metro - how much would that cost and how long would it take? How long has cross rail in London being going on? |
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"We have more cars on the road so we will get longer delays - especially when you have a police force who don't care how long they inconvenience motorists as long as they gather whatever evidence they think they need. These hold ups would be 25% longer if they didn't use the hard shoulder. Perhaps if their focus was on keeping the traffic flowing then that would go a long way to reducing delays.
Yes it would be great if all kids walked to school but if the school is 4/5 miles away is that practical. Improving the rail service would require billions of investment and the destruction of some brown/green field sites - the tracks have to run somewhere and stations need building. Leeds desperately needs a metro - how much would that cost and how long would it take? How long has cross rail in London being going on?'"
Interesting comments on the rail service.
I would suggest that this has simply been a secondary thought/neglected for decades and the lack of a decent East/West rail service in the North of England is verging on Criminal.
It's little surprise that considering the time to go trans Pennine, that most people opt to travel by car but, this is just a symptom of how mickey poor the rail service actually is.
My lad now lives on the dark side and travels over to us regularly but, a journey that takes an hour in the car can take over double using the train and that assumes they are not either full or cancelled.
As for the time and cost of creating infrastructure, much of the increase in cost, compared to budget, comes from delays in getting the plans through due to bureaucratic waste, which then further delays the project as they repeatedly go round the circle again,
HS2 being a prime example - perhaps we should hand over our capital projects to the Chinese ?
Our rails service is second rate in pretty much all aspects
It would be worth investing or even subsidising our public transport to help reduce congestion but, some of our politicians only see the cost in pound notes without considering the benefits. |
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The IFS have suggested that the Tories will indeed need to increase taxation in the upcoming budget or, they will break their own spending rules.
With Income Tax, National Insurance and VAT already promised not to increase, I wonder who they will hit ?
Pensioners and the well off ?
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