Who is this "we" you refer to, because, I sure as hell don't, the only people who deserve this mess are those that voted to leave the E.U. & the Tories who gave us the vote, just to placate the right wing so they wouldn't vote UKIP.




Spoken like a true "leaver", however, shouldn't that read medium / long term?

As for everyone knowing it was going to be bad initially, that's not true is it, it was going to be glorious from the get-go according to Farage & Co.

The "we" that I refer to is the voting public, which due to our democratic system is everyone.
As for me being "leaver", get a grip man. I may not be the sharpest tool in the box but, at least I saw the storm coming and despite the many flaws within the EU, we are/were still better as part of it.

Regarding everything being bad from the get go, unfortunately, everyone was told that we would be in for an economic shock but the leave brigade said that it was a price worth paying to "take back control".


The saddest irony of all is that a referendum, designed to prevent a split within the Tory party had caused more of a rift since the result and IF Cameron hgad had the balls to tell Farage to go and play with his friends, at least we would have only had 10 years of austerity forced upon us, rather than the crap that is still to come.

Rees Mogg and Boris have moved their fortunes overseas (irony overload) to protect them selves from any economic downturn and yet they still pretend that everything is going to be great.

It's quite sad how the Tory elite have mannaged to convince the working man that they should follow Farage and in this sense, for being so blindingly stupid, "we" get what we deserve.

Ha, ha, I didn't claim you voted leave, however you are chanting their mantra of short term gain for long term gain.

You seem to be at peace with the whole fiasco & happy to move on, I on the other hand, will never get over this right wing coup, who have used the poorest people in the country to facilitate this debacle.

As I have stated before, if we don't stay in the E.U. I hope we end up with a No Deal scenario, because as you say "we" get what "we" deserve.

Whether we like it or not there was a democratic vote - lies were spouted on both sides leading up to the vote and the leave campaign provided a marginally more compelling argument.

If the vote is overturned it will have significant impact on the "democratic" process. The idea that because the politicians don't like the outcome means they can circumnavigate/manipulate the result to get their way is a dangerous situation. It makes the UK akin to the despots in Africa who refuse to accept the democratic process.

What happens when the next general election doesn't go the right way do the politicians simply ignore the result?

I take it by your comment thatb you are happy with the proposed deal ?

As a Leave voter, is it what you wanted/expected ?


Also just getting back to the democratic vote.
In a general election, if/when a party doesnt stay fairly close to their manifesto or, is found to have badly misled the electorate, there can be a vote of no confidence or, another general election.
With this situation, there is no going back, certainly not for a couple of generations (at least) and you could argue that throught the democratic process (ie Parliament), the lies and deliberate misleading of the public (remember the #350 million a week), political scrutiny has actually found holes in the srguement.
Therefore, should we trust the elected members to "do the right thing" and vote the deal down or, expect them to "carry out the will of the people" ?

May will lose the commons vote, she won’t call an election but will go to a second referendum.

1. Her negotiated deal.
2. Leave with no deal.
3. Remain.

Well, I'd never heard Tony Benn's views on the EU until today.

Always admired him.



Seriously though, he puts it far better than anyone in the Leave campaign ever did. If his speeches had formed part of the campaign we'd have won 80/20.

As a leave voted I expected no deal - I could see no way we could have our cake and eat it. Whilst I expected short term pain I did think there were far more long-term benefits.

Are you seriously suggesting that if we left and we went back to Europe in 10 years time they wouldn't have us back?

There were lies and deliberate misleading statements on both sides - you seem to have memory loss on Osborne's the economy will tank immediately and taxes will need to rise significantly immediately.

Your view of trusting the elected members would work if the elected members represented the balance of the vote but as we both know it doesn't so it would work for remainers but doesn't represent the vote. Its like saying the country voted for a Tory government but the elected members decide Labour should form the government.

Interesting stuff.

IF we wanted to go back, like you, I'm sure that a way could be found for the UK to re-join the EU but, the terms of our re-entry would be without doubt far worse than we have now.

I'm still surprised that, despite the size and historical strength of our ecconomy, people still want to have us withdraw to our small island(s) and
"take the world on" by ourselves

If we stay in our deal will only get worse especially if the EU continues to add countries who extract rather than input funds into the EU.

There are plenty of countries that prosper economically that are outside of the EU. I don't understand why with our current platform - yes we are in the EU - we cannot prosper also outside of the EU. Let's be honest the EU has to sell its product somewhere and we buy quite a lot. Not sure BMW/Mercedes are going to be easily able to replace our volumes elsewhere.

Not sure which countries are about to be invited into the EU? Turkey certainly isn't while Erdogan is imprisoning journalists/anyone he doesn't like. Even before he came along it was unlikely.

We do more trade with the EU than anywhere else and by being part of is manage to share costs for heaps of things that we wouldn't otherwise be able to afford on our own. The argument about buying cars from Germany has already fallen flat since those companies have already gone on record saying they don't want to jeopardise the single market. We'll just have to pay more for them.

Our current deal where we have a veto and rebate is pretty good. Better in fact than anyone else in it.

Agreed

It's also astonishing that the 27 EU nations managed to ratify the proposal in 40 minutes and yet "our" government is still in utter dissaray.

Assuming thet this doen't make it through parliament, do we then crash out with "no deal" and if so, what happens to the Irish border.

I think that Sheldon probably has it about right - since there is no way that the Maybot will call a GE anytime soon; she'd consign the Tories to opposition for years.

I don't necessarily support a People's Vote, but given that the Tories will cling to power like rats on a sinking ship, I think it's the only option we'll get once the HoC rejects the deal.

Its obvious - this is a great deal for one side and not the other.

The idea that we are tied in to the back stop unless we let the all of Europe into our waters to take our fish and we let the Spanish have Gibraltor - that is the reality.

We would be better off with no deal than the restrictions the EU will put on us to get out of the back stop

Well done Margaret Thatcher.

What are these cost savings we couldn't achieve?

You argument is flawed as there are heaps of countries outside of the EU that mange to trade very happily with the EU why couldn't we?

It's quite clear that the EU will put its own interests first.
Of course they will still trade with the UK and the UK with them.
However, we will now become "competitors" and assuming that the current bill makes it through Parliament, how do you fancy our chances negotiating the actual "trade deal", are you starting to feel out numbered or small yet ?

We've already allowed the EU to lead us by the nose through the withdrawal agreement and to suddenly expect that we will get the better of them in the main event is just fantasy.

The reality will start to bite at some point when we finally see that Farage is indeed a self serving **** and his promises of a brighter future were just political rhetoric or FAKE NEWS.

The EU may well need our armed forces sooner or later. The Russian bear is flexing his muscles. Hence the flash point the other day with Russian ships blocking access to Ukraine shipping. We have forces stationed in various European countries which were part of the soviet block.Russia makes no secret that they still regard them as part of the former Soviet Union Funny the snake oil salesmen macron or merkel never mentions our contribution to peace in that part of the world. Germany pays virtually nothing into nato, no doubt it will require nato to perform if the political situation deteriorates. Perhaps we should send a bill to Germany for all the money we paid to defend Germany during the Cold War.

Approximately seven countries are negotiating to join the EU. Albania is one of them, seeing what goes on in that country should be enough reason alone for us to leave the EU. This is why people voted to leave the EU it was a free trade block of countries. Absolutely fine and dandy ,but the clowns in Brussels decided to make the thing political. Also expanding at an unsustainable level.

Any evidence for that cobblers?

Germany & UK have recently announced a 'deepening relationship' on defence, irrespective of Brexit. Germany & Holland are currently developing advanced defence systems suitable for deployment to the Baltic.

Your ongoing anti-German diatribe is pathetic. Fortunately I don't know you, but I would put my mortgage on you being a typical gammon man.

Good grief I have certainly touched a raw nerve with you. I will debate with anyone on here in a respectful manner.so I won’t be trading insults with you. I am not In any way anti German, I used to work for a major German company overseas . Have many German friends also have traveled Germany extensively. The fact remains that due to the euro German exports have soared whilst countries such as Italy have struggled because they are locked into the euro which doesn’t suit the Italian economy.

For example we'd find it cheaper to fund a GNSS system like Galileo as part of a group of nations than alone.

Where is your evidence?

Congratulations you have posted without resorting to insults. Hope springs eternal. In 2014 Nato countries agreed to spend 2 percent of gdp on nato. Despite Germany being one of the richest countries in the world they have failed that target. The USA is the largest contributor. Hence trump with some justification criticising Merkel. Evidence? Look on various web sites all the information tallies. Plus the economist magazine which is quite reliable. The situation may change if the so called European army come to fruition. Highly unlikely ,but you never know. Incidentally in the build up to the referendum the subject of a European army was mentioned by the leave campaign. The remain movement sneered at that topic, false news,scaremongering etc etc. Funny old world isn’t it.

You said;

It is one of the biggest contributors. You are talking rubbish.

Are you for real - is that the best you can come up with - desperate.