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| Quote ="bren2k"Nah - because we've never acted on dodgy intelligence before have we?'"
It's not like the Russians have ever assassinated 'traitorous' spies by nefarious means before, is it..? Or indeed made repeated public death threats?
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| The Tories jumped in with both feet, and triggered a chain of international diplomatic expulsions - and the Foreign Secretary and the PM lied to the media and the public along the way.
Jeremy Corbyn meanwhile, was vilified for advocating a calm and rational response, due process, and acting when the evidence was available.
Party affiliations aside - who looks like they got it right?
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| Quote ="bren2k"The Tories jumped in with both feet, and triggered a chain of international diplomatic expulsions - and the Foreign Secretary and the PM lied to the media and the public along the way.
Jeremy Corbyn meanwhile, was vilified for advocating a calm and rational response, due process, and acting when the evidence was available.
Party affiliations aside - who looks like they got it right?'"
more utter shoite from you.
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| Quote ="PCollinson1990"more utter shoite from you.'"
Discussing things - and arguing - with Cronus is always interesting, because despite our differences, he usually has something intelligent and informed to say.
=#FF0000EDITED - Wanderer
Please keep the debate free from personal insults.
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| this nerve agent incident came at a good time for the government, they needed something to divert our attention from the events in Telford that they want to keep quiet, just like Rochdale and Oldham
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| =#FF0000QUOTED POST REMOVED - Wanderer
See above.
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| Quote ="bren2k"The Tories jumped in with both feet, and triggered a chain of international diplomatic expulsions - and the Foreign Secretary and the PM lied to the media and the public along the way.'"
None of which is correct. Porton Down confirmed the agent was of the Novichok family (this was their only job). Other intelligence combined with the history of Novichok and Russia's motives, means and track record, did the rest.
Don't forget, 29 nations and NATO agreed.
BoJo confirmed they had samples. Which they do. From the victims and from all over Salisbury. Otherwise what on earth did the OPCW collect for examination?
The media, as usual, are inflating a non-story for their own means.
Quote Jeremy Corbyn meanwhile, was vilified for advocating a calm and rational response, due process, and acting when the evidence was available.
Party affiliations aside - who looks like they got it right?'"
Jeremy couldn't bring himself to condemn his Russian buddies. His own party even turned on him. One permanent member of the UN Security Council uses a chemical weapon to mount an attack on the soil of another permanent member, and he dithers and wrings his hands in Parliament.
As for due process - I ask again (as no-one yet has answered), can you provide examples of where due process hasn't been followed? I keep hearing the phrase but unless I'm wrong, launching an exhaustive investigation, bringing in the appropriate experts and inviting the OPCW to provide their own analysis is indeed due process.
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Quote ="tigertot"Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed.
These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests.
www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1'"
As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab.
In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession.
I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to.
I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment.
FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.
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Quote ="tigertot"Usually you need a teeny, weeny bit more evidence to be found guilty. Unless the law has changed.
These guys were chemists working in a standard laboratory, not at the Iranian Porton Down. Which shows that the information is out there & not limited to nation states as the Government suggests.
www.spectroscopynow.com/details/ ... &tzcheck=1'"
As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab.
In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession.
I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to.
I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment.
FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.
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| Quote ="RoyBoy29"this nerve agent incident came at a good time for the government, they needed something to divert our attention from the events in Telford that they want to keep quiet, just like Rochdale and Oldham'"
Roy gets it! Don’t forget the brexit shambles!
Regards
King James
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| Quote ="dr_feelgood"As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab.
In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession.
I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to.
I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment.
FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.'"
Don't come on here with educated comments.
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| Quote ="Cronus"Don't come on here with educated comments.
'"
indeed, being educated seems to be a form of intellectual warfare on The Sin Bin!
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| Quote ="dr_feelgood"As a research chemist I would very much doubt that the materials were made in a "standard lab". While the chemistry involved is relatively low tech, the difficulty is in making the stuff without killing yourself at the same time. This would require a high integrity lab of the sort used in manufacturing highly cytotoxic anti cancer drugs or very strong anaesthetics. This would require airlocks, decontamination areas, using glove boxes and wearing rubber suits with an airhood or BA system. Certainly not what you would find in a standard lab.
In addition, the person applying the nerve agent would have to be trained and using protective clothing. I did note that some Novichok agents were developed so that the final two precursors could be stored separately and only mixed prior to use. The assassin could for instance have put one part of the reagent on the front door and the other part on the door handles of the car, thus the material would only be active when both surfaces were touched in quick succession.
I think Porton Down probably cross referenced samples from the crime scene against their own internally produced standards. They would have made these when the Russian insider whistle blew on the project in order to test their toxicity and potential treatments. They (PD) could only link the material to Russia if they could compare the impurity profile to that of a sample of authentic Russian made material, which I doubt they have access to.
I find the Russian claims that the material used in the assassination attempt came from PD laughable bearing in mind the security at the place and that all scientific staff are vetted prior to employment.
FWIW I do think that the Russian government was probably responsible as they have enough expertise and the motive to carry out such an attack. Proving beyond reasonable doubt that they did it is an entirely different matter.'"
Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?'"
Because brexiteers like Cronus believe every word he says and thus, deflects from the train wreck we call brexit
Regards
King James
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?'"
See, this is where the media twist words in desperation for a scandal. It was almost embarrassing watching various journalists being destroyed last night, as it was made clear what a non-story this is. Jon Snow's best reply was reduced to, 'that may be the case but there is still a row about this'.
Johnson simply didn't say PD had definitely identified the source of the agent as Russia. He merely confirmed PD had samples. Which they do, from the victims and from various locations around Salisbury. PD were in fact never tasked to identify the source, which is why headlines such as 'PD unable to identify source' are disingenuous as that was never their job. They confirmed it was a Novichok agent and it's of course likely they provided background on the Novichok family. PD clearly confirmed it was a combination of evidence and intelligence that lead to identifying Russia.
Interviewer, “They have the samples?”
Johnson, “They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, ‘Are you sure?’ And he said there’s no doubt.”
Rather than focus on the fact a nerve agent attack has been mounted on British soil, people wring their hands and waste time over nonsense like this, none of which in shifts any burden of guilt away from Russia.
The Russian Ambassador was hilarious this afternoon. He's clearly a very smart guy, but watching him lying through his teeth was brilliant.
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| Quote ="Lebron James"Because brexiteers like Cronus believe every word he says and thus, deflects from the train wreck we call brexit
Regards
King James'"
more nonsense, no facts, no conversation, just occasional insults
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Where does this leave the comments made by Boris, which were totally unambiguous and he quoted PD as having said that it was DEFINITELY the Russian state, quite different from the spokesman from PD.
Could there have been any exaggeration or embellishment from Boris ? and if so, why ?'"
yawn, again
what is the point in The Sin Bin when all it is Commerade Corbyn bin?
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| PD stated that it was a Novichok agent and would need a "state operator" to use it in such a manner. They didn't say which state was responsible and said that that investigation was down to the Police and intelligence services. PD never stated that Russia was responsible, that was down to the PM and that buffoon Boris.
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| Quote ="PCollinson1990"yawn, again
what is the point in The Sin Bin when all it is Commerade Corbyn bin?'"
Here you go again, trusting the politicians.
Everyone in public office, of any political persuasion should be open to scrutiny.
To trust them all is just plain wrong, whether their name is May, Corbyn, Blair or Cameron.
They are usually in the business of self preservation and remaining or obtaining power.
Truth and credibility, especially in the modern era come way down the shaft and blind followers of either side remain blinkered.
Much of the media is aligned to one party or another and again, truth always comes second to their own agenda.
If we had an impartial press and media, with a bit less drama, perhaps the truth would come out but to blindly back either side (Tory or Labour) is just naive and if we ever stop questioning those in power, we will ALL be screwed.
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Here you go again, trusting the politicians.
Everyone in public office, of any political persuasion should be open to scrutiny.
To trust them all is just plain wrong, whether their name is May, Corbyn, Blair or Cameron.
They are usually in the business of self preservation and remaining or obtaining power.
Truth and credibility, especially in the modern era come way down the shaft and blind followers of either side remain blinkered.
Much of the media is aligned to one party or another and again, truth always comes second to their own agenda.
If we had an impartial press and media, with a bit less drama, perhaps the truth would come out but to blindly back either side (Tory or Labour) is just naive and if we ever stop questioning those in power, we will ALL be screwed.'"
and where does your superior, unbiased, information come from?
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| Quote ="Cronus"Interviewer, “They have the samples?”
Johnson, “They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, ‘Are you sure?’ And he said there’s no doubt.”'"
Absolutely incorrect - you've obviously only seen the Newsnight version of events, where they faded the footage in *after* the initial question:
Interviewer: “You argue that the source of this nerve agent – novichok – is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of this?”
Mr Johnson replied: "When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory… they were absolutely categorical, I mean, I asked the guy myself, I said, 'are you sure?' and he said 'there's no doubt.' And so, we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken."
Regardless of what happened, it's shameful that Boris Johnson is allowed to persistently lie and obfuscate with no consequences, and that the BBC is now blatantly acting as the state propaganda outlet, mobilised to protect him from his latest lie.
And that's aside from another Government expert saying that the reason the Skripal's didn't die the horrible death that this nerve agent is purported to cause ("it could have killed half of Salisbury" according to Ben Wallace) was because Porton Down had an antidote - despite previously saying that there was no antidote.
The whole thing stinks - we are being misled on an epic scale, because it's politically helpful to the incumbent government.
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| Quote ="bren2k"Absolutely incorrect - you've obviously only seen the Newsnight version of events, where they faded the footage in *after* the initial question:
Interviewer: “You argue that the source of this nerve agent – novichok – is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of this?”
Mr Johnson replied: "When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory… they were absolutely categorical, I mean, I asked the guy myself, I said, 'are you sure?' and he said 'there's no doubt.' And so, we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken."
Regardless of what happened, it's shameful that Boris Johnson is allowed to persistently lie and obfuscate with no consequences, and that the BBC is now blatantly acting as the state propaganda outlet, mobilised to protect him from his latest lie.
And that's aside from another Government expert saying that the reason the Skripal's didn't die the horrible death that this nerve agent is purported to cause ("it could have killed half of Salisbury" according to Ben Wallace) was because Porton Down had an antidote - despite previously saying that there was no antidote.
The whole thing stinks - we are being misled on an epic scale, because it's politically helpful to the incumbent government.'"
more nonsense, just taking pot shots bu corbynite
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| Quote ="PCollinson1990"more nonsense, just taking pot shots bu corbynite'"
This interview is there for all to see or listen to.
You really are in some strange world of denial.
No problem with opposing views but blind denial of fact is slightly bizarre.
Watch the interview and then report back and then ask yourself just WHY would Boris say what he did, again, slightly bizarre, unless he has some personal or political agenda ??
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| Quote ="PCollinson1990"more nonsense, just taking pot shots bu corbynite'"
The second part of my post was most certainly taking pot shots - but that interview is a matter of record, and I transcribed *exactly* what was said; so feel free to address how that was nonsense?
And why Newsnight chose to edit the qualifying part of the interviewers question seems fairly clear - there can be no other explanation than the one I put forward.
I feel sad about the BBC - so much of it is good and worthy, but the News team is so blatantly pro-Tory, it's gone beyond a joke; I've never agreed with calls to remove the licence fee and make them go commercial, but I'm increasingly resentful of paying for a service that no longer meets the basic principles of its charter.
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| Quote ="bren2k"Absolutely incorrect - you've obviously only seen the Newsnight version of events, where they faded the footage in *after* the initial question:
Interviewer: “You argue that the source of this nerve agent – novichok – is Russia. How did you manage to find it out so quickly? Does Britain possess samples of this?”
Mr Johnson replied: "When I look at the evidence, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory… they were absolutely categorical, I mean, I asked the guy myself, I said, 'are you sure?' and he said 'there's no doubt.' And so, we have very little alternative but to take the action that we have taken."
Regardless of what happened, it's shameful that Boris Johnson is allowed to persistently lie and obfuscate with no consequences, and that the BBC is now blatantly acting as the state propaganda outlet, mobilised to protect him from his latest lie.
And that's aside from another Government expert saying that the reason the Skripal's didn't die the horrible death that this nerve agent is purported to cause ("it could have killed half of Salisbury" according to Ben Wallace) was because Porton Down had an antidote - despite previously saying that there was no antidote.
The whole thing stinks - we are being misled on an epic scale, because it's politically helpful to the incumbent government.'"
Nope. I've watched the original interview with Deustche Welle, which went exactly as per below:
Interviewer, "Mr Johnson you argue that the source of this nerve agent Novichok is Russia, how did you manage to find it out so quickly, does Britain possess samples of this?"
Johnson (talks for 55 seconds), “[i....waffle...[/iI genuinely think Russia is an incredible country, a fantastic place, and it pains me to see the way things have got between us. So, I’m genuinely distressed by what has happened. But when I look at the evidence; I mean, the people from Porton Down, the laboratory…”
Interviewer, “So they have the samples?”
Johnson, “They do. And they were absolutely categorical and I asked the guy myself, I said, ‘Are you sure?’ And he said there’s no doubt.”
Twice she asked "do you have the samples". It was the final part of the original question and the entire second question.
So, show me where Johnson states PD told him it was definitely manufactured in Russia. As PD have confirmed, they simply identified it as a Novichok agent although they will certainly have provided background information such as "to our knowledge this was developed in Russia, only Russia has stockpiled it...etc..."
Look, even if your blinkered leftist bias means you genuinely read it the way you're claiming, it makes sod all difference. The best you have is a whisperingly vague and highly questionable implication. It's a nothing story, and the only people picking it up are doing so out of desperation. Move on. The rest of the world already has.
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| For the avoidance of doubt, [url=http://www.dw.com/en/boris-johnson-accused-of-making-misleading-russia-novichok-claim-in-dw-interview/a-43251856here's the full interview.[/url
And I absolutely do read it that way - he's gone totally off even Mrs May's much more cautious script, and prompted the Foreign Office to furiously delete official Tweets and scramble to spin him out of trouble; so quite why you're so intent on defending him is beyond me. He's a liability to your cause - he just presented Putin with an open goal for gods sake - but his boss is in too precarious a position to get shut.
Meanwhile, it's emerged that the PM refused to share information with leader of the opposition - then led the charge on criticising his response, accusing him of using the incident to advance party politics, whilst using the incident to advance party politics.
At least it's bumped the Brexit shambles, the Vote Leave/BeLeave/CA scandal and the NHS off the front pages - and it might play well in the upcoming local elections, so job done.
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