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| Quote ="Him"A simple question requiring a simple answer, are you in favour of welfare reform?'"
Everyone should be a favour of welfare reform - the system should provide the best available option for the monies available. Welfare reform should be ongoing activity so as to reflect the needs of those benefitting from the system.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Everyone should be a favour of welfare reform - [uthe system should provide the best available option for the monies available[/u. Welfare reform should be ongoing activity so as to reflect the needs of those benefitting from the system.'"
I think the question has to be "are you in favour of [ifair[/i welfare reform."? Because we all know at the moment it isn't. In 2013 food banks shouldn't exist (of be few and far between), disabled people should get all the help they need without having to jump through hoops and have their Doctors/Consultants listened to instead of a tick box excersise, under 25's should be able to live independently and claim housing benefit if they need it (yes in 2013 under 25's [ido[/i get ill and [iare [/imade redundant), the recently unemployed shouldn't have to wait a week without any money. (I know their mortgage company, supermarket or utility company wouldn't!) I could go on and on.
And as for the bit in bold, the system should provide the best option for all those who need it without putting unfair sanctions on people, for example how is it fair that a 24 year old who lives independently becomes redundant and won't get any housing benefit and has to be "supported" by parents (thats if they have any, some people have no one), yet the just turned 26 year old in the same block of flats who worked at the same place and was made redundant the same time gets to keep their flat because they can claim housing benefit. Again I could go on and on.
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| I think I'm one of those who would be much better off on JSA benefits than in work. I'm currently in PT employment, 24-hours per week on minimum wage but my employer requires me to have a car insured for business purposes.
I'm reasonably young (mid-20s) with zero no claims so the cost of insurance is short of £1,000. Then there's tax and MOT to think of, plus petrol which I don't get paid for commuting, but I may be required to travel for work purposes on short notice.
When everything adds up including rent and living, I'm just breaking even and cannot afford to pay for my insurance when the renewal comes (even with a standing order for an affordable amount of money into a savings account to pay for it), hence I'm fearing for my job when I tell my employer I no longer have a car.
Annoyingly I don't think I qualify for income support as I work too much!
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| The 5 Giants of the Welfare State:
Want, Disease, Ignorance, Squalor and Idleness
How are these being met in modern society?
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| Quote ="Peckerwood"I think I'm one of those who would be much better off on JSA benefits than in work. I'm currently in PT employment, 24-hours per week on minimum wage but my employer requires me to have a car insured for business purposes.
I'm reasonably young (mid-20s) with zero no claims so the cost of insurance is short of £1,000. Then there's tax and MOT to think of, plus petrol which I don't get paid for commuting, but I may be required to travel for work purposes on short notice.
When everything adds up including rent and living, I'm just breaking even and cannot afford to pay for my insurance when the renewal comes (even with a standing order for an affordable amount of money into a savings account to pay for it), hence I'm fearing for my job when I tell my employer I no longer have a car.
Annoyingly I don't think I qualify for income support as I work too much!'"
Do you not recieve a car allowance from your employer?
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Quote ="Peckerwood"I think I'm one of those who would be much better off on JSA benefits than in work. I'm currently in PT employment, 24-hours per week on minimum wage but my employer requires me to have a car insured for business purposes.
I'm reasonably young (mid-20s) with zero no claims so the cost of insurance is short of £1,000. Then there's tax and MOT to think of, plus petrol which I don't get paid for commuting, but I may be required to travel for work purposes on short notice.
When everything adds up including rent and living, I'm just breaking even and cannot afford to pay for my insurance when the renewal comes (even with a standing order for an affordable amount of money into a savings account to pay for it), hence I'm fearing for my job when I tell my employer I no longer have a car.
Annoyingly I don't think I qualify for income support as I work too much!'"
Do you qualify for Working Tax Credits? Calculator here: https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator
(You may need to work another 6 hours somewhere I suspect)
Some of that stuff you pay may be tax deductible, may be worth having an hour with an accountant.
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Quote ="Peckerwood"I think I'm one of those who would be much better off on JSA benefits than in work. I'm currently in PT employment, 24-hours per week on minimum wage but my employer requires me to have a car insured for business purposes.
I'm reasonably young (mid-20s) with zero no claims so the cost of insurance is short of £1,000. Then there's tax and MOT to think of, plus petrol which I don't get paid for commuting, but I may be required to travel for work purposes on short notice.
When everything adds up including rent and living, I'm just breaking even and cannot afford to pay for my insurance when the renewal comes (even with a standing order for an affordable amount of money into a savings account to pay for it), hence I'm fearing for my job when I tell my employer I no longer have a car.
Annoyingly I don't think I qualify for income support as I work too much!'"
Do you qualify for Working Tax Credits? Calculator here: https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator
(You may need to work another 6 hours somewhere I suspect)
Some of that stuff you pay may be tax deductible, may be worth having an hour with an accountant.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise" Welfare reform should be ongoing activity so as to reflect the needs of those benefitting from the system.'"
Let's get this straight: we are talking Social Security not welfare. There really are few if any who "benefit" from the system. How beneficial do you think it is to be constantly belittled as a "shirker or scrounger"?
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Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Do you qualify for Working Tax Credits? Calculator here: https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator
(You may need to work another 6 hours somewhere I suspect)
Some of that stuff you pay may be tax deductible, may be worth having an hour with an accountant.'"
Tax Credits!!
Another cost to the taxpayer!
Employers should be made to pay a living wage just as no child benefit should be paid for more than one child - even that is debatable!
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Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Do you qualify for Working Tax Credits? Calculator here: https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator
(You may need to work another 6 hours somewhere I suspect)
Some of that stuff you pay may be tax deductible, may be worth having an hour with an accountant.'"
Tax Credits!!
Another cost to the taxpayer!
Employers should be made to pay a living wage just as no child benefit should be paid for more than one child - even that is debatable!
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| Quote ="Maple Leaf"Tax Credits!!
Another cost to the taxpayer!
Employers should be made to pay a living wage ... '"
A really, really valid point.
However, the cost of housing - whether rented or bought - is a really massive problem and one hat makes many working people need housing benefit. So it may not even be as simple as the employer not paying an adequate wage. We desperately need to tackle the housing crisis (I use that word deliberately) an then other things possibly become clearer and maybe even easier.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"You can't phrase the question like that though, in this newly enlightened era of media driven government you would have to phrase the question as follows ...
"Do you favour welfare reform in order to expunge the country of shirkers, third generation unemployed, faked disablility claimants, and foreigners coming here for an easy life?" Tick Yes or No, calls may be charged after the poll has ended but thats tough, we could probably not charge for calls after a fixed end time but why the hell should we if you are stupid enough not t read the T&C.'"
Even with a straight forward, neutral question like "are you in favour of welfare reform?" You can, if you're IDS or Ajw spin support for that as support for your own reform proposals regardless of what they actually are.
I notice Ajw has disappeared again.
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International Board Member | 625 | No Team Selected |
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| Quote ="Dally"Talking of stats and polls The Guardian reports this morning that the Tories and Labour are now both on 37% in opinion polls - Tories having recovered a big chunk of their UKIP protest vote. So, as I said 2 Eds are destroying Labour's chances. We'll see a Tory landslide if there is any semblance of economic recovery.'"
Ipsos MORI/Standard – CON 29, LAB 40, LD 10, UKIP 12
17 Jul 2013
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| Quote ="Mintball" We desperately need to tackle the housing crisis (I use that word deliberately) an then other things possibly become clearer and maybe even easier.'"
...and I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again - from 1974 until 1985 when I left the industry I was employed by a large electrical contracting company (100+ employees in our Leeds office multiplied by offices all over the country) and during that time we never had anything less than ten (an arbitary number from my head but pretty much on the low side) house building or refurbishment projects on the go at any given time.
Some of those sites were for 300 to 500 dwellings, almost all were for local authority and housing associations and 100% of all of those were for rent.
Make a note of those years and check out which party(s) were in power - both Labour and Conservative is the correct answer and Wilson, Callaghan and even Thatcher were all committed to a continuous program of social house building and refurbishment in numbers that we can only dream of these days.
So what happened, was the country extremely wealthy during those 11 years, north sea oil income didn't really kick in until the end of the 70s so the answer is no, we had two recessions during that period, we had years and years of industrial unrest and a depressed economy, we had a steel strike one year that meant that our building trade ground to a halt - but still the housing program continued on a massive scale.
The only difference between then and now is political will, there was a need for social housing, low cost rental properties, even Thatcher saw that (initially), even her henchman Tebbit saw that if you wanted the unemployed to get on their bikes to find work, if you were closing steel and coal towns down then you'd better make sure that it was easy to source new social housing in another town when you told them to move on - even the most rabid of Tories understood that principal.
We could do it now, it would be private housing associations that did it, but we could do it right now, we could build hundreds of thousands of social housing units, we did it when the country was broke under Wilson and especially Callaghan, but we don't have the will to do it now, as a country we are so short sighted and morally bankrupt with greed that we don't even understand our own history.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"
We could do it now, it would be private housing associations that did it, but we could do it right now, we could build hundreds of thousands of social housing units, we did it when the country was broke under Wilson and especially Callaghan, but we don't have the will to do it now, as a country we are so short sighted and morally bankrupt with greed that we don't even understand our own history.'"
We were even more broke in 1945
The direct and indirect benefits that another house-building boom would bring totally eclipse those projected for vanity projects like HS2 or Trident
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"...and I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again ...'"
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"...and I've said it before and I'll say it again and again and again ...'"
Indeed you have and you are absolutely right.
The twin problems of the housing shortage and the high cost of welfare are linked, both can be relieved by building social housing.
Add to that the boost to GDP and employment that building houses would bring and the tax-take to HMG would soar, thereby reducing the deficit as well.
Either Gideon must have missed the relevant lecture on his PPE course ... or he has an aversion to a) social housing being owned by local authorities and b) Keynesian economics.
I think we all know which is the case.
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| Quote ="El Barbudo"... Either Gideon must have missed the relevant lecture on his PPE course ... or he has an aversion to a) social housing being owned by local authorities and b) Keynesian economics.
I think we all know which is the case.'"
Thing is, as Mr Chicken makes clear, it's not just Gidiot, is it? It's been successive governments since the 1980s.
The government may have other reasons for adhering to the orthodoxy, but ultimately it's simply a wider ideological issue of a belief that private is always better and preferable, and many of the public believe it too, because the bulk of the mainstream media has drip-fed them a diet of anti-public services stories for close on 30 years.
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| I think it would be almost impossible to go back to the 1970s/80s when every local authority had a properly funded housing department and many had their own direct works dept (they were in effect a building contractor), and politically it is completely off the menu for all three of the main parties.
But there is absolutely no reason why a government supported, even government funded program of low cost social housing cannot be provided and managed by private housing associations, there is a willingness for this both from the tenant and the landlords and the very, very limited supply of "forced by planning consents" social housing element to every new private house build project is always part-let, part-sold off-plan and its no coincidence that the "forced by planning" shared ownership part of every development is always built first.
What we need is the political will to fund these developments on a large scale just like their predecessors did - maybe they could search the archives to find out how it was funded ?
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| Quote ="El Barbudo, addressing Ajw1, "Bearing in mind that there are 5 applicants for every vacancy, just how does reducing benefits "encourage" people back into work?
It could maybe encourage people to [uwant[/u a job more than they already wanted one ... but a bright spark like you should be able to see that's not the same thing as [ugetting[/u one.
Is it?'"
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"... What we need is the political will ...'"
Again, spot on.
Quote ="JerryChicken"... maybe they could search the archives to find out how it was funded ?'"
I suspect that few modern politicians care much for history. Wasn't it Tony Blair who (in)famously confessed that he wished he'd studied it? Yet even that subsequent admission provoked no admission that he had any regrets about Afghanistan or Iraq.
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| Quote ="Mintball"...Thing is, as Mr Chicken makes clear, it's not just Gidiot, is it? It's been successive governments since the 1980s.
The government may have other reasons for adhering to the orthodoxy, but ultimately it's simply a wider ideological issue of a belief that private is always better and preferable, and many of the public believe it too, because the bulk of the mainstream media has drip-fed them a diet of anti-public services stories for close on 30 years.'"
Indeed.
The Blair/Brown governments were terrified of appearing to be left wing, believing that the public would lose trust in them if they did, and, during the boom years, I guess the problem didn't appear to be as bad as it does now.
But sheer economics tells us it's desirable and do-able.
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| Quote ="JerryChicken"
What we need is the political will to fund these developments on a large scale just like their predecessors did - maybe they could search the archives to find out how it was funded ?'"
Sufficient public land is available for such projects and even if it isn't, all that would need to happen is local authorities buy agricultural land (cheap as chips) and grant themselves planning permission, Just like they did post-WW2.
Institutional investors such as pension funds and insurance companies would be queueing up to provide the funds for building costs. Rents could then be fixed to reflect costs and future contingencies, rather than to reflect "market rates". This would have the reverse effect on the housing market that we saw during the Right to Buy boom and would go a long way towards normalising the housing market.
Unfortunately the Blairites in Labour still attach a stigma to those who can only afford to rent or who simply have no wish to buy their own homes
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| Quote ="cod'ead"
Unfortunately the Blairites in Labour still attach a stigma to those who can only afford to rent or who simply have no wish to buy their own homes'"
...and now my children are struggling hard to fund an application to get into a home of their own, whether that be rented or purchased - they prefer to purchase or part purchase only because rents are ridiculously expensive (more than a mortgage would be) and they are potentially held to ransom by private landlords and letting agents (who they and I do not trust one inch) in a way that their grandmother who rented a local authority house for the whole of her life, never was.
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Quote ="Hull White Star"Do you not recieve a car allowance from your employer?'"
Yes, paid per mile. But even with petrol costs covered, the overall expense of owning a car is making it unaffordable.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Do you qualify for Working Tax Credits? Calculator here: https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator
(You may need to work another 6 hours somewhere I suspect)
Some of that stuff you pay may be tax deductible, may be worth having an hour with an accountant.'"
I'm short by six hours, correct. Looking into it, I seem to be trapped in the middle where I'm not putting enough into the system to get anything back, and putting too much in to claim anything in benefit in order to live on.
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Quote ="Hull White Star"Do you not recieve a car allowance from your employer?'"
Yes, paid per mile. But even with petrol costs covered, the overall expense of owning a car is making it unaffordable.
Quote ="Ferocious Aardvark"Do you qualify for Working Tax Credits? Calculator here: https://www.gov.uk/tax-credits-calculator
(You may need to work another 6 hours somewhere I suspect)
Some of that stuff you pay may be tax deductible, may be worth having an hour with an accountant.'"
I'm short by six hours, correct. Looking into it, I seem to be trapped in the middle where I'm not putting enough into the system to get anything back, and putting too much in to claim anything in benefit in order to live on.
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| Quote ="Peckerwood"
I'm short by six hours, correct. Looking into it, I seem to be trapped in the middle where I'm not putting enough into the system to get anything back, and putting too much in to claim anything in benefit in order to live on.'"
Joseph Heller wasn't too far wrong then?
[i"There was only one catch and that was Catch-22, which specified that a concern for one's safety in the face of dangers that were real and immediate was the process of a rational mind. Orr was crazy and could be grounded. All he had to do was ask; and as soon as he did, he would no longer be crazy and would have to fly more missions. Orr would be crazy to fly more missions and sane if he didn't, but if he were sane he had to fly them. If he flew them he was crazy and didn't have to; but if he didn't want to he was sane and had to."[/i
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| Quote ="Maple Leaf"Tax Credits!!
Another cost to the taxpayer!
Employers should be made to pay a living wage just as no child benefit should be paid for more than one child - even that is debatable!'"
What about the personal allowance - that's a cost to "the taxpayer" (whoever he is) - should that be abolished?
As to employers paying a living wage, that is desirable but where do all those marginally profitable employers that employ a large percentage of the workforce get the money from?
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