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Preamble starts> I’ve noticed that some insults are being thrown across the political divide(s) on a few threads.
When you’ve spent a lot of years coming to understand the world as best you can, it can be easy, day-to-day, to imagine that those who understand it differently must be malign or manipulated or misinformed or just plain dumb. But, while that is undoubtedly true of some, to some degree, the idea that it is very true for very many people... seems unlikely to me (attacks on 5G infrastructure etc., apart). Most people are decent enough in my experience.
I think we can also all fall into the trap of working back from our self-image as liberal/conservative/whatever to a position that fits our existing worldview, or philosophy if we’re feeling grandiose, rather looking at arguments on their merits. <preamble ends
To mix and freshen things up and challenge our preconceptions about the world and each other, I’d like to suggest mashing up elements of Fantasy Policy Advisor (not a real thing afaik) and the Stanford prison experiment (real thing, not without issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_ ... experiment)
I’m imagining two small teams, each containing right- and left-leaning members, coming up with four or five bullet point policies as the basis of a political manifesto for the UK, for discussion with and criticism by the other team.
Anybody want to play?
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Preamble starts> I’ve noticed that some insults are being thrown across the political divide(s) on a few threads.
When you’ve spent a lot of years coming to understand the world as best you can, it can be easy, day-to-day, to imagine that those who understand it differently must be malign or manipulated or misinformed or just plain dumb. But, while that is undoubtedly true of some, to some degree, the idea that it is very true for very many people... seems unlikely to me (attacks on 5G infrastructure etc., apart). Most people are decent enough in my experience.
I think we can also all fall into the trap of working back from our self-image as liberal/conservative/whatever to a position that fits our existing worldview, or philosophy if we’re feeling grandiose, rather looking at arguments on their merits. <preamble ends
To mix and freshen things up and challenge our preconceptions about the world and each other, I’d like to suggest mashing up elements of Fantasy Policy Advisor (not a real thing afaik) and the Stanford prison experiment (real thing, not without issues https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_ ... experiment)
I’m imagining two small teams, each containing right- and left-leaning members, coming up with four or five bullet point policies as the basis of a political manifesto for the UK, for discussion with and criticism by the other team.
Anybody want to play?
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| You're Zimbardo then Squire?
I'd play, but I definitely do not have time to play at the moment.
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| Quote ="Sandro II Terrorista"You're Zimbardo then Squire?
I'd play, but I definitely do not have time to play at the moment.'"
Nah, I’d want to play.
For reasons very different and less important than yours, my work is mad busy at the minute. Need something else for my mind to have a break with.
I hope you’re as well as can be, under the circumstances.
At least Rovers are unbeaten these last few weeks!
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"Nah, I’d want to play.
For reasons very different and less important than yours, my work is mad busy at the minute. Need something else for my mind to have a break with.
I hope you’re as well as can be, under the circumstances.
At least Rovers are unbeaten these last few weeks!'"
a bit like FC, even more so since squads were furloughed, our lot where in such a state that they could probably lose an unopposed training session, against themselves!
(politics aside, I too hope everyone is as well as can be)
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| Quote ="IR80"a bit like FC, even more so since squads were furloughed, our lot where in such a state that they could probably lose an unopposed training session, against themselves!
(politics aside, I too hope everyone is as well as can be)'"
I think Radford did a good job with Hull - it is hard to argue with silverware - but I think his stint had reached a natural end. That last game against Warrington was very poor. Wouldn’t mind seeing him at Rovers one day, down the line - a couple of years off from being ‘mobile’ would be nice.
Rawsthorne’s late try to spare our blushes against Leigh in the cup was a welcome relief, but we were/are in relegation trouble again.
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| Cognitive diversity - 9/11 could have been prevented with a bit of that
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Cognitive diversity - 9/11 could have been prevented with a bit of that'"
It was weapons of Mass Destruction you plum.
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| Quote ="WIZEB"It was weapons of Mass Destruction you plum.'"
Yes of course - but perhaps with a different skill set of thought processes in the CIA then the perpetrators would have been caught before they actually on the planes?
I appreciate that kind of thinking is beyond a plum like you?
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"Yes of course - but perhaps with a different skill set of thought processes in the CIA then the perpetrators would have been caught before they actually on the planes?
I appreciate that kind of thinking is beyond a plum like you?'"
Not like you to be all about if's and but's Sal.
We know deep down you think Johnson is a bit of a chancer, just let it out.
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| Quote ="WIZEB"Not like you to be all about if's and but's Sal.
We know deep down you think Johnson is a bit of a chancer, just let it out.
'"
I don't think its and if I think its a known fact the like of diversity in the CIA was a major contributory factor to the success of 9/11
I am under no illusion as to Boris' faults - as we all to Corbyn's - for all his faults we are damn site better of with Boris in charge than grandpa - come you let it out we know deep down what you really think.
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| Quote I don't think its and if I think its a known fact the like of diversity in the CIA was a major contributory factor to the success of 9/11'"
Success?
Not for the couple of thousand Yanks ground to dust or the tens of thousands of women and children who perished in the retributory crusade that followed.
Quote I am under no illusion as to Boris' faults - as we all to Corbyn's - for all his faults we are damn site better of with Boris in charge than grandpa - come you let it out we know deep down what you really think.'"
Yup, it'd have to be Jezza over the Bullingdon boy every time for me.
I'm just a sucker for a bit of social equality everytime.
It's a pipe-dream but it doesn't stop the wanting.
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| Pencilling WIZEB and Sal in for the Plum team!
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"Pencilling WIZEB and Sal in for the Plum team!'"
Thanks.
I went to Damsonian College, Withernsea.
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| Wouldn't the most logical manifesto simply repeat whatever Finland has in theirs? Finland is frequently identified as the happiest country in the world whereas typically the UK sits around 15th. I accept that the geography and population density etc are different but surely they must be doing something right that we can adopt.
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| Quote ="silver2"Wouldn't the most logical manifesto simply repeat whatever Finland has in theirs? Finland is frequently identified as the happiest country in the world whereas typically the UK sits around 15th. I accept that the geography and population density etc are different but surely they must be doing something right that we can adopt.'"
Coincidentally, given the bipartisan idea for this thread, the Finns generally have coalition governments - they use proportional representation and multi-seat constituencies.
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| Here are a couple of my snowflake to gammon policy pitches for evaluation and criticism.
1. Scrap HS2 and spend the money saved on improving commuter services in the provinces. Apart from MPs and the like, how many people in the North travel regularly to London or need to more often? It feels like a London-centric solution to Northern issues to me.
2. Scrap direct government foreign aid. This’d appeal to the ‘charity begins at home’ crowd (not really charity then, is it? But never mind). It could be simultaneously sold to soft hearted liberals by noting it is often just a bribe, sometimes to corrupt regimes, to further foreign policy aims - but isn’t even very effective in doing that.
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"Here are a couple of my snowflake to gammon policy pitches for evaluation and criticism.
1. Scrap HS2 and spend the money saved on improving commuter services in the provinces. Apart from MPs and the like, how many people in the North travel regularly to London or need to more often? It feels like a London-centric solution to Northern issues to me.
2. Scrap direct government foreign aid. This’d appeal to the ‘charity begins at home’ crowd (not really charity then, is it? But never mind). It could be simultaneously sold to soft hearted liberals by noting it is often just a bribe, sometimes to corrupt regimes, to further foreign policy aims - but isn’t even very effective in doing that.'"
Have you ever tried to get the train from Leeds to London in a morning? There are a few more than the local MPs travelling. If you want to decentralise then you have to give the biggest city in the country swift access to the regions otherwise you will stifle it.
I agree with the second point.
My two points:
Revisit the NHS and what we want it to deliver - it cannot continue to be all things to all people all the time
Revisit the governing body - remove the house of lords - reduce the number of MPs by removing the Scottish, Welsh and Irish MPs as they already have their own assembly
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| By having a genuine Northern powerhouse we could eliminate the need for much of the business travel between here and London - and even if theres still a demand surely that doesnt need to be a high speed link. We can still do work and communicate whilst on the train. HS2 is a vanity project, which to have made any sense should have connected directly to Eurotunnel.
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise" Have you ever tried to get the train from Leeds to London in a morning? There are a few more than the local MPs travelling. If you want to decentralise then you have to give the biggest city in the country swift access to the regions otherwise you will stifle it. '"
I haven’t and I’m not saying it is easy. However, my guess is that more people suffer more often on local lines doing daily commutes - and it could be improved relatively cheaply. I’m taking inspiration from a Dispatches on Channel 4 from a few weeks ago. Fair though
Quote ="Sal Paradise" I agree with the second point. '"
We’re off.
Quote ="Sal Paradise" My two points:
Revisit the NHS and what we want it to deliver - it cannot continue to be all things to all people all the time
Revisit the governing body - remove the house of lords - reduce the number of MPs by removing the Scottish, Welsh and Irish MPs as they already have their own assembly'"
For the NHS, moving away from comprehensive, universal and free at the point of delivery is a hard sell to snowflakes - and the wider public, I reckon. There’s always been a bit of wriggle around ‘comprehensive’ and even ‘free’. However, initially it looks like a right wing policy for the right wing choir. Happy to hear more if I’ve missed your point.
Your second point is more interesting to me. Are you imagining a looser federation or commonwealth of nations rather than the current Union? How much autonomy would the individual countries have? How would joint decisions be made? I’d suggest [ireplacing[/i the Lords, but yeah - constitutional reform works.
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"I haven’t and I’m not saying it is easy. However, my guess is that more people suffer more often on local lines doing daily commutes - and it could be improved relatively cheaply. I’m taking inspiration from a Dispatches on Channel 4 from a few weeks ago. Fair though
We’re off.
For the NHS, moving away from comprehensive, universal and free at the point of delivery is a hard sell to snowflakes - and the wider public, I reckon. There’s always been a bit of wriggle around ‘comprehensive’ and even ‘free’. However, initially it looks like a right wing policy for the right wing choir. Happy to hear more if I’ve missed your point.
Your second point is more interesting to me. Are you imagining a looser federation or commonwealth of nations rather than the current Union? How much autonomy would the individual countries have? How would joint decisions be made? I’d suggest [ireplacing[/i the Lords, but yeah - constitutional reform works.'"
On the NHS - clinical/pharma excellence/progression is moving faster than the funds to support it - can we still expect the NHS to keep delivering as it is? Do we spend millions on cancer treatments for one person or millions doing cataracts for thousands of people etc.
On the second point - yes I am interested in a more Federal approach - were local issues are dealt with locally and Macro issues such as Fiscal policy is dealt with centrally
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"On the NHS - clinical/pharma excellence/progression is moving faster than the funds to support it - can we still expect the NHS to keep delivering as it is? Do we spend millions on cancer treatments for one person or millions doing cataracts for thousands of people etc.
On the second point - yes I am interested in a more Federal approach - were local issues are dealt with locally and Macro issues such as Fiscal policy is dealt with centrally'"
It is challenging to fund new treatments. However, it is worth remembering that only ~15% of the NHS budget is spent of drugs. The bigger challenge healthcare provision faces in the UK is a an ageing population, more than pharmaceutical innovation and its budget impact.
Rather than removing MPs from Scotland, NI and Wales from Westminster, would it make sense for that to remain as the central body and have regional assemblies in England?
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"It is challenging to fund new treatments. However, it is worth remembering that only ~15% of the NHS budget is spent of drugs. The bigger challenge healthcare provision faces in the UK is a an ageing population, more than pharmaceutical innovation and its budget impact.
Rather than removing MPs from Scotland, NI and Wales from Westminster, would it make sense for that to remain as the central body and have regional assemblies in England?'"
I don't mind how its structured as long as duplication is reduced and decision-making is streamlined, we have seen during Covid how difficult it seems to make decisive decisions quickly
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| Quote ="Sal Paradise"I don't mind how its structured as long as duplication is reduced and decision-making is streamlined, we have seen during Covid how difficult it seems to make decisive decisions quickly'"
Out of interest, which decisions around the response to the current crisis do you think have been stymied by the second chamber? I ask that in the spirit of neutrality proposed by the OP - because I genuinely can't think of a single one; and I am in favour of constitutional reform, so we get off on the right foot.
On the NHS and the 'ageing population' problem - I have long advocated radical reform of the Social Care sector - and I speak from the inside; that in itself would solve a significant swathe of the problems faced by the NHS. But successive H&SC Secretaries forget the SC part of the brief.
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| Quote ="bren2k"Out of interest, which decisions around the response to the current crisis do you think have been stymied by the second chamber? I ask that in the spirit of neutrality proposed by the OP - because I genuinely can't think of a single one; and I am in favour of constitutional reform, so we get off on the right foot.
On the NHS and the 'ageing population' problem - I have long advocated radical reform of the Social Care sector - and I speak from the inside; that in itself would solve a significant swathe of the problems faced by the NHS. But successive H&SC Secretaries forget the SC part of the brief.'"
I completely agree with your second point - the first point was more about the infrastructure of the public sector and how long it takes to get things done - we apparently have thousands of UK firms wanting to supply PPE but because of government processes they haven't been responded to - a crisis like this needs quick accurate decisions - some of which will be wrong - this isn't possible with a public sector as snail-paced as ours.
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| Quote ="bren2k"But successive H&SC Secretaries forget the SC part of the brief.'"
I must correct myself in the interests of fairness - SC was only added to H at the beginning of 2018, so that Jeremy Hunt could ignore it from a position of authority; prior to that, it was just quietly ignored, in an informal way.
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